Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

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mjr
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2019, 9:35am

pwa wrote:Funnily enough, i remember a few years ago arguing with someone on this forum who was adamant that Tesco style delivery (by van) was a good way of reducing car traffic and pollution, and I said that van deliveries were, because of time slots, not as efficient as you might imagine. The same company delivering to different doors in the same street twice or more on the same day, with sometimes 10 or 15 miles between drops.

I suppose the argument is that van deliveries should be a good way of reducing traffic and pollution - and I wonder whether running a warm commercial van engine 10 miles may still be less polluting than running a cold private car engine 4.

It sounds like at the moment, the commercial incentives aren't strong enough for the shops to encourage the second or third shopper from an area to pick the same time slot as other deliveries in their area. That seems like a market failure, not a problem with the concept as such.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jan 2019, 9:40am

Some studies have been done on shopping habits and travel modes in the Netherlands, Denmark, and USA at least.

I don't have any of them handy, but IIRC, cylists shop more often and buy less per trip, but spend more overall.

No one *needs* to have 10 delivery trays of food in their home unless they run a catering business.

It's easy to say it won't happen, but *something* has to change. We are killing ourselves with the way things are.

Personally, I'd like to see at least a partial return to more local shopping; the village baker & butcher, green grocer, etc. If driving were made less convenient and local shopping more convenient, I'm sure it would happen. It probably wouldn't look quite like it did a couple of generations ago.

People could potentially place orders on-line and collect them, as needed at the shop. Some shops in Norway, have pick-up windows for on-line orders, now. They are often off the storage area, rather than the shopping area. The shops nearest me don't do that, but I like the concept. I could plan a menu for the week, order the stuff on-line, and collect fresh food every couple of days.

That said, I don't think it necessarily has to be an all or nothing deal. Maybe it's enough to discourage people from driving to shop, and local shops combined with an efficient delivery system is the way to do it.

In any case, all of the costs and benefits should be studied and weighed, including shopping behaviour, food waste, motor emissions, time, etc.

Right now, most people don't even think about it.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2019, 9:42am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Funnily enough, i remember a few years ago arguing with someone on this forum who was adamant that Tesco style delivery (by van) was a good way of reducing car traffic and pollution, and I said that van deliveries were, because of time slots, not as efficient as you might imagine. The same company delivering to different doors in the same street twice or more on the same day, with sometimes 10 or 15 miles between drops.

I suppose the argument is that van deliveries should be a good way of reducing traffic and pollution - and I wonder whether running a warm commercial van engine 10 miles may still be less polluting than running a cold private car engine 4.

It sounds like at the moment, the commercial incentives aren't strong enough for the shops to encourage the second or third shopper from an area to pick the same time slot as other deliveries in their area. That seems like a market failure, not a problem with the concept as such.


I've never ordered food online so i don't know the process, but as far as I am aware there is no incentive for the people at Number 5 to order in the same time slot as the people in Number 14, so the same driver in the same van can pass a house he/she will be delivering to later on in the day. It does seem daft, but people are offered a choice of time slots...

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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jan 2019, 9:45am

On the delivery issue TM has it right,it's horses for courses,delivery by bike works well for small loads and short hop 2miles or less,think pizzas and small packages,etc.
The supermarket delivery system works because it saves lots of busy people time,by loading lots of orders onto one van especially to outlying villages from the main hub and with the right technical navigational kit on board can be very efficent indeed.

There no need for blindspots on HGV's but they're driven by humans and humans aren't machines and subject to mistakes,as are cyclists.I'm very wary of large vehicles and treat them with respect and I never,that's never go up the inside of one.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jan 2019, 9:47am

They are all struggling to build market share and so are prepared to do some things at a loss. AFAIK, the so-called discounters don't do online grocery sales, which might be part of the reason they are able to be competitive on price.

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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2019, 9:50am

pwa wrote:I've never ordered food online so i don't know the process, but as far as I am aware there is no incentive for the people at Number 5 to order in the same time slot as the people in Number 14, so the same driver in the same van can pass a house he/she will be delivering to later on in the day. It does seem daft, but people are offered a choice of time slots...

Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jan 2019, 9:51am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:I've never ordered food online so i don't know the process, but as far as I am aware there is no incentive for the people at Number 5 to order in the same time slot as the people in Number 14, so the same driver in the same van can pass a house he/she will be delivering to later on in the day. It does seem daft, but people are offered a choice of time slots...

Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)

It wouldn't be that hard to do.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2019, 10:04am

Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:I've never ordered food online so i don't know the process, but as far as I am aware there is no incentive for the people at Number 5 to order in the same time slot as the people in Number 14, so the same driver in the same van can pass a house he/she will be delivering to later on in the day. It does seem daft, but people are offered a choice of time slots...

Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)

It wouldn't be that hard to do.

And as the delivery company would save money by doing several drops close together at around the same time, there seems no reason to resist.

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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2019, 10:13am

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)

It wouldn't be that hard to do.

And as the delivery company would save money by doing several drops close together at around the same time, there seems no reason to resist.

<developer-hat>There would be some cost in making the delivery prices react to demand instead of being on a fixed schedule and figuring out what the strength of that reaction would be.</developer-hat> That shouldn't be enough to prevent it, which is part of why I think this seems like a market failure.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jan 2019, 10:14am

Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:I've never ordered food online so i don't know the process, but as far as I am aware there is no incentive for the people at Number 5 to order in the same time slot as the people in Number 14, so the same driver in the same van can pass a house he/she will be delivering to later on in the day. It does seem daft, but people are offered a choice of time slots...

Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)

It wouldn't be that hard to do.

It depends on the customers,if there's say six customers in the same 1 mile radius delivering to all six within say a 1 hour slot only works if those customers are available in that 1 hour.People maybe unavailable for all kinds of reasons,shiftwork,picking up children visiting friends,etc,etc.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby MikeF » 11 Jan 2019, 10:32am

pwa wrote:
MikeF wrote:
pwa wrote:It's largely a legacy of our history that we share the same space. Unless we rip up our built environment and start from scratch we are going to be sharing space with motor vehicles. In my nearest town all the streets I regularly cycle on are required for vehicular use, and I want to use them too. There is insufficient room for another vehicular corridor. Not ideal, but that's how it is.
I don't know your local town, but in my nearest town and neighbouring ones there are roads that might be said to be "required for vehicle use", and that may be true in some cases, but many probably are not, and even if they are motor vehicles could be "accommodated". People will always find a reason why they have to drive, but in many cases this is not actually the case.
There are "pedestrianised" streets in some towns eg centre of Tunbridge Wells that isn't that far from me. The "required for vehicle" use has been forgone.
It's not necessary to rip everything up, but there needs to be change otherwise just focussing on blame will not change anything.

If you can find a street where there are no homes with cars, and where there is nobody requiring deliveries of groceries, amazon goods, furniture, no taxis or anything like that, then yes, those streets could be traffic free. I can't think of any that fit into that category, other than the already pedestrianised town centre. That's just not going to happen in any place near to me. My safety can only be managed by drivers doing what they are meant to and me doing anything extra that I think may encourage them to do that.
I did not say vehicles couldn't use streets if necessary. However they may not be able to use them so freely and carelessly as they are now. That should improve safety. People will still make mistakes, but the seriousness of the mistake needs to be lessened; slower speeds and reducing motor traffic volume will help, but not completely eliminate danger as people have been run over in car parks.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2019, 10:55am

reohn2 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:Choice is fine, but there should be an incentive to pick one when the van's already in your area: better for the environment and cheaper for the deliverer. There are already incentives from some retailers to pick less generally popular times like weekday daytimes, through higher charges for evenings and especially weekends. (I have ordered food online but not regularly any more.)

It wouldn't be that hard to do.

It depends on the customers,if there's say six customers in the same 1 mile radius delivering to all six within say a 1 hour slot only works if those customers are available in that 1 hour.People maybe unavailable for all kinds of reasons,shiftwork,picking up children visiting friends,etc,etc.

I don't see how that prevents using demand-linked pricing to encourage (not force) people without those constraints to pick the same hour.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jan 2019, 11:09am

mjr wrote:I don't see how that prevents using demand-linked pricing to encourage (not force) people without those constraints to pick the same hour.

People without those constraints aren't the problem for multidrop minimum mileage deliveries but as I posted above,people are people they have they own lives to lead and part of their lives may include those kind of constraints.People order stuff online for their own convenience not Tesco's,etc,Tesco,etc understands that and offers multiple time windows to those people it's why they offer the service,convenience for the customer is the key.
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2019, 11:12am

reohn2 wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't see how that prevents using demand-linked pricing to encourage (not force) people without those constraints to pick the same hour.

People without those constraints aren't the problem for multidrop minimum mileage deliveries but as I posted above,people are people they have they own lives to lead and part of their lives may include those kind of constraints.People order stuff online for their own convenience not Tesco's,etc,Tesco,etc understands that and offers multiple time windows to those people it's why they offer the service,convenience for the customer is the key.

Again, none of that is arguments against offering cheaper deliveries if the van's already doing a delivery nearby! Retailers can still offer multiple time windows but it's really bizarre to price delivery windows the same when the costs aren't the same.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Trucks Do Not Have Cyclist-Obscuring Blind Spots

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jan 2019, 11:23am

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't see how that prevents using demand-linked pricing to encourage (not force) people without those constraints to pick the same hour.

People without those constraints aren't the problem for multidrop minimum mileage deliveries but as I posted above,people are people they have they own lives to lead and part of their lives may include those kind of constraints.People order stuff online for their own convenience not Tesco's,etc,Tesco,etc understands that and offers multiple time windows to those people it's why they offer the service,convenience for the customer is the key.

Again, none of that is arguments against offering cheaper deliveries if the van's already doing a delivery nearby! Retailers can still offer multiple time windows but it's really bizarre to price delivery windows the same when the costs aren't the same.

They're providing a service and out to make a profit.
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