Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

brynpoeth
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Jan 2019, 8:39pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:Many motorways are being converted to smart motorways by using up the hard shoulder and then ripping off any unfortunate motorist who breaks down on a smart motorway with exorbitant fees.
..

Converted, downgraded, hard shoulders to running lanes - deadly madness :(
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jan 2019, 1:01am

Since about 250 people die on the hard shoulder each year I would have thought a definite No. The hard shoulder provides an important role which doesn't involve normal travel.
John

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Debs
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby Debs » 14 Jan 2019, 1:26am

Even if it was legal to bicycle on M-way hard shoulders, i wouldn't ever.
The obvious dangers aside; i wouldn't like the pollution, the noise of traffic, the side of road debris, or the boredom of cycling in such a hellish environment.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 14 Jan 2019, 8:08am

Compared with some A roads they look attractive - that’s an argument for improving A roads, or at least limiting them to stop them becoming defective* motorways, but without the building standards (i.e alternative routes)..

Even if we laid, and maintained, a strip of tarmac on the left of the barrier along all motorways, there aren’t that many trips that would want to use such a facility I don’t think.

Of course the obvious thing for cyclists is to follow the dedicated blue signs, and ignore the blue signs.


* (I typed de facto, but autocorrect thinks I meant defective... You know what - I'm leaving the autocorrect version in)
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gaz
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby gaz » 15 Jan 2019, 9:59pm

A2.png
A2 - 8 lanes+hard shoulders pseudo-motorway

That Highways England expect any cyclist to be here beggars belief but they thoughtfully provide this off slip for cycle traffic. They have also confirmed that use of the A2 hardshoulder by cyclists is legal.

It would have been even more thoughtful of them to provide signage to tell you where it goes, or indeed signage at any of the previous junction(s) to guide you to the parallel NCN routes rather than letting cyclists stray into this extremely hostile environment in the first place.

basingstoke123
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby basingstoke123 » 15 Jan 2019, 11:31pm

If I understand correctly, the only reason that some A roads are still called 'A roads' and not 'motorways' is because several categories of users are prohibited from using motorways. There might be no physical difference to a motorway, but reclassifying it as a Motorway would require providing alternative provision. It is not only cyclists that are prohibited from motorways. Learner drivers, mopeds, tractors are also prohibited.

I remember once joining the M4 (driving - not cycling!), and there had been an accident on the roundabout junction, resulting in all traffic wanting to cross over on the roundabout being diverted onto the motorway. At the time I wondered how the police would have handled any traffic that was not allowed on the motorway. Having grown up on a farm I naturally thought of a large tractor and trailer. Reversing back down the dual carriageway with several lanes of queuing traffic would have been difficult (the tractor driver would have no problems reversing - it's just all the cars behind). I guess the police would have had to temporarily close the open half of the roundabout and escort the tractor anti-clockwise around it.

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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 16 Jan 2019, 10:16am

basingstoke123 wrote:If I understand correctly, the only reason that some A roads are still called 'A roads' and not 'motorways' is because several categories of users are prohibited from using motorways. There might be no physical difference to a motorway, but reclassifying it as a Motorway would require providing alternative provision. It is not only cyclists that are prohibited from motorways. Learner drivers, mopeds, tractors are also prohibited.

Yes. This is (probably a fuller version of) what I was saying earlier.

thirdcrank
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Jan 2019, 10:31am

In contrast with gaz's pic above, here's a streetview selected at random of the A6055 which provides an alternative route for prohibited traffic by the A1(M) in N Yorks. Further south, the A 168 is similar. Hardly a country lane, but immeasurably better than the margins of a dual carriageway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.28782 ... 312!8i6656

"When I was a lad" this used to be the A1 through Aberford. It probably carries more traffic now than it did then, but it's no longer a main trunk road.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.82789 ... 312!8i6656

PS If we had a cycling in the 1950's thread, Aberford etc would be in it.

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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby Vorpal » 16 Jan 2019, 10:37am

irc wrote:Works OK in the places it is allowed in the USA. I felt safer on an 8 foot hard shoulder of a rural freeway than many other roads. Probably not ideal for much of the UK network due to volume of traffic. For some rural secions maybe. And as suggested above going off and re-entering at each junction is safest.

bikelane.jpg

Edit - that pic is a bit misleading that is on an entrance slip. Once on the actual freeway the hard shoulder is 8 feet wide.


I've ridden on the shoulder of rural US highways, and IMO, it works ok for two reasons
-the shoulder is better than being overtaken with inches to spare at 80 mph
-there often aren't any other alternatives without a 50 mile or more detour

I don't think it's a good example to follow.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Jan 2019, 5:04pm

De Sisti wrote:To get onto and off a motorway one has to encounter a slip road with FAST moving traffic.
The differential between that traffic and the speed of a bike is a substantially greater than
that between cars and bikes in an urban situation.

Absolute madness to even consider it as being feasible. :roll:

Many people ride on roads that are 60/70mph and have motors passing at far greater than that, I have to cross two slips at J7 A1, this is part of NCN12 to then try cross a dual carriageway (bypass road) where the crossing is located on the crown of the bend. I then cycle on what was the old gt North road which has a recycling plant on it so I have to put up with skip lorries thundering past at 50+mph or a single decker at same often coming within a couple of feet.
The alternate would be to get on the slip and continue on the hard shoulder down to the next junction.
Given the stats for deaths/SI on hard shoulders compared to elsewhere I reckon it's far safer for me on the hard shoulder than it is trying to cross two slips, two dual carriageways plus a NSL road with tipper lorries, buses and the usual twonk going to the golf club!

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Jan 2019, 5:06pm

softlips wrote:No, the hard shoulder is the most dangerous place on the motorway. Hence if you breakdown on there it’s recommended to get everyone out and behind the barrier.

Is it, let's see your facts for that, it certainly isn't the most dangerous place on the highway as a whole, not even close, I looked at the stats some while back and the hard shoulder is safer than many roads that you would frequent as an ordinary cyclist.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Jan 2019, 5:22pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Since about 250 people die on the hard shoulder each year I would have thought a definite No. The hard shoulder provides an important role which doesn't involve normal travel.

sorry but you're massively wrong on that, it's around a 100 Killed AND injured per year! There were a total of 403 collisions in FIVE years between 20011 and 2016 on ALL UK motorways, go ask Highways England who will conform those stats.
given the miles covered by motors, the hard shoulder is safe, there's lots of bull about how dangerous it is, yet on the roads themselves is far, far more dangerous!

Oldjohnw
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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Jan 2019, 6:26pm

For some reason the AA think the figure is 250.

Happy to be corrected. But it doesn't persuade me that the hard shoulder is the appropriate place for a cyclist.
John

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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby drossall » 16 Jan 2019, 9:10pm

thirdcrank wrote:In contrast with gaz's pic above, here's a streetview selected at random of the A6055 which provides an alternative route for prohibited traffic by the A1(M) in N Yorks. Further south, the A 168 is similar.

How far up was Top Boro? I used to reckon to have raced on most of the A1 from north of Newcastle down to the north edge of Hertfordshire. Before it was a motorway, of course.

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Re: Should cyclists be allowed to use (some) M-way hard shoulders?

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Jan 2019, 9:33pm

drossall wrote: ... How far up was Top Boro? I used to reckon to have raced on most of the A1 from north of Newcastle down to the north edge of Hertfordshire. Before it was a motorway, of course.


I don't know, never having been a TT rider. A lot of the old dual carriageway has been preserved, or rather one carriageway has been preserved. eg You may remember the long wall on the eastern side of the A1 just south of Borobridge. This was the od southbound carriageway of the DC
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.02013 ... 312!8i6656

This once-busy transport café just south of Leeming Bar is now derelict. You can see the new A1(M) to the right, and the A 6055 here was the old northbound carriageway of the DC.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.21977 ... 312!8i6656
==============================================================

By contrast here's a bit of the current (non-motorway) A1 just south of the M62.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.66286 ... 312!8i6656