Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Cunobelin »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Old people may have trouble with balance and coordination
The best test would be bicycling: someone who can not ride a bicycle may not drive a motor



Although the speed is slower, reaction times, abilities and responses on bike really need to be of a reasonable standard

There would be a reasoned argument that if you are unfit to drive, there is at least an increased risk, if not true danger if you were to cycle
thirdcrank
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by thirdcrank »

The increased use of the motor car has turned Central Place Theory on its head. All manner of services are no longer easily accessible by public transport, having been moved out of urban centres to mitigate parking problems. Although public transport is generally worse and deteriorating more quickly in rural areas, it's not brilliant in urban areas either. A lot of things now assume the availability of a car.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by al_yrpal »

In the newspaper it said that a 97 year olds car insurance would be between £5000 and £10000. I am sure he can afford it... :D Lost his no claims bonus :D

Al
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Barks
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Barks »

All this conjecture about yet another car accident on a very busy road that has too high a speed limit - once we know the broader circumstances, particularly just what was the speed of the Kia, then many might be ruing their judgements of elderly drivers. The real question is how to assess the driving standards of all people on the roads - lets have health checks and eyesight and technical reassessments for all drivers say every 5 years and after any incident that results in some form of sanction. But we can’t even implement the ‘cumpulsory’ ban for those exceeding 12 points so what chance is there really of combating the menace of those drivers who for whatever reason cannot or will not operate a car in a safe manner.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Cunobelin »

Barks wrote:All this conjecture about yet another car accident on a very busy road that has too high a speed limit - once we know the broader circumstances, particularly just what was the speed of the Kia, then many might be ruing their judgements of elderly drivers. The real question is how to assess the driving standards of all people on the roads - lets have health checks and eyesight and technical reassessments for all drivers say every 5 years and after any incident that results in some form of sanction. But we can’t even implement the ‘cumpulsory’ ban for those exceeding 12 points so what chance is there really of combating the menace of those drivers who for whatever reason cannot or will not operate a car in a safe manner.





The problem is that there is a high profile case that has brought out the bias against the individual as well as older drivers, concentrating a very wide and varied problem when we look at safety and deteriorating health

There are thousands of drivers (not all old) who drive with defective eyesight (either undiagnosed or failing to wear glasses)

Only last year there was the EYE 735T campaign to get drivers to check their eyesight

There was also another call for action over eyesight last year form the Association of Optometrists:

Calls for law to be changed, as nearly half of optometrists report seeing a driver with poor eyesight in the last month

Eyesight experts are calling for drivers to undergo mandatory sight tests every ten years in the wake of a number of high profile road collisions where poor vision was a contributing factor.

Figures from the Department for Transport show “uncorrected, defective eyesight” was a factor in 193 collisions in 2016, resulting in seven fatalities and 245 injuries.

The Association of Optometrists (AOP) wants drivers to undergo a comprehensive eyesight check to prove their vision meets the legal standard when they first apply for the licence. The AOP is also calling for drivers to face a mandatory retest every 10 years, with more frequent checks after the age of 70.



Then there is the potential of improving things by looking at mental attitude. Arriva used psychometric testing with their fleet drivers and where aggressive driving was deemed likely than they introduced remedial training and halved their accident rates


Perhaps we should be changing the agenda from "Elderly Drivers" to "ALL DRIVERS" as many of the aspects are irrelevant of age.
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Spinners
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Spinners »

Wouldn't it be brilliant if it transpired that he wasn't actually insured?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Since this thread came about following the incident with the Duke it should be noted that he gave up his pilot's licence several years ago. Why?

I guess another question I have is what is the requirements related to being fit to fly compared to those for driving a car? Should there be any difference? I really don't know. Should his driving licence have been given up with his pilot's?

Did someone post something about not taking someone's mobility away? Well put simply if you can determine that due to age related factors it is likely to be a public safety matter then you should remove their mobility if that involves driving. There just doesn't appear to be any system to determine fitness to drive. I expect flying requires a medical for all pilots at regular periods, driving doesn't.,
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by The utility cyclist »

Doesn't the risk of older drivers seem lower than it really is because a significant % of the license holders simply don't drive at all? Also the vast majority of older drivers also do not drive during peak times, these factors are not considered in the data when comparing % of license holders at x age to decree risk, also time of day as we all know that this also has a significant impact on chances of an incident.

I was close passed on Sunday a few times, the worst of which was an elderly driver in a small car, no slowing down just piled past within 12", not for the first time might add that the older driver does this and IME they are more prevalent at it than any other group or vehicle type.
As for the 'older drivers don't speed', well I see plenty of the retirees/well over 70 bombing it and not just on higher speed roads, urban roads too were they are well in excess of 30mph don't people kid themselves that crumblies don't drive fast!

That said, retesting, physical health tests and other restrictions should be across the board, successive governments are complicit in KSIs by the tens if not hundreds of thousands because they fail to act on known issues with motorists that kill and maim.

Driving ages, if you're good enough you're old enough, if you prove to fall down on that level (which should be significantly higher than is currently) then we need to find ways that actually have some resonance with those drivers such that it has a greater affect on them idrectly and their attitude plus also one for the rest so they do not lapse as often as they do now.
There's been a massive reliance on technology to aid drivers and to get them out of trouble, KSIs are going back up (and for people on bikes has risen since the mid 2000s though explained in part by huge increases in helmet wearing from that period onward) so as this tech advances, the skill level of motoring has gone backwards by a lot. Isn't it about 4% of the driving population that don't have licenses or any of the other bits of paper to be legal on the roads anyway, I reckon it'll probably be much higher than that.

Things just cannot go on as they are and yet it will, there will be no changes to the law that benefits safety, no changes to instruction nor checking all drivers continually. We've had useless DRLs, allowed intensely bright headlamps that blind, allowed entertainment units in motors that have screens as big as a large laptop and more so that motorists can be even more distracted even if they don't have sat nav or their phones to stare at. Caught with the phone/device being used whilst driving should come with the same penalty as drink driving, that it isn't is criminal.

Nope, focusing on learner instruction on Sat nav use and parking on the wrong side of the road and not bothering to use indicators as the norm on these manoeuvres - I see this virtually every day on the estate road and infuriates me smething chronic as does the overtaking of parked vehicles so I can just drive right at you learner driving, one where apparently-3" is plenty of room! :twisted:
Meh
Oldjohnw
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Oldjohnw »

Wouldn't it be brilliant if it transpired that he wasn't actually insured?


It is quite possible that he is not. I understand that the Crown has exemption. I believe Crown properties and departments do not insure.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by thirdcrank »

Spinners wrote:Wouldn't it be brilliant if it transpired that he wasn't actually insured?


Apart from the tabloid press, who would benefit from that?

Obviously, I know nothing about the situation in this case but speaking generally, there are alternatives to third party insurance specified under ss143 and 144 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The purpose of third party cover is to ensure that people with a valid compensation claim don't go unpaid and the likelihood of that happening here seems small.
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Patrickpioneer
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Patrickpioneer »

The utility cyclist wrote:Doesn't the risk of older drivers seem lower than it really is because a significant % of the license holders simply don't drive at all? Also the vast majority of older drivers also do not drive during peak times, these factors are not considered in the data when comparing % of license holders at x age to decree risk, also time of day as we all know that this also has a significant impact on chances of an incident.

I was close passed on Sunday a few times, the worst of which was an elderly driver in a small car, no slowing down just piled past within 12", not for the first time might add that the older driver does this and IME they are more prevalent at it than any other group or vehicle type.
As for the 'older drivers don't speed', well I see plenty of the retirees/well over 70 bombing it and not just on higher speed roads, urban roads too were they are well in excess of 30mph don't people kid themselves that crumblies don't drive fast!

That said, retesting, physical health tests and other restrictions should be across the board, successive governments are complicit in KSIs by the tens if not hundreds of thousands because they fail to act on known issues with motorists that kill and maim.

Driving ages, if you're good enough you're old enough, if you prove to fall down on that level (which should be significantly higher than is currently) then we need to find ways that actually have some resonance with those drivers such that it has a greater affect on them idrectly and their attitude plus also one for the rest so they do not lapse as often as they do now.
There's been a massive reliance on technology to aid drivers and to get them out of trouble, KSIs are going back up (and for people on bikes has risen since the mid 2000s though explained in part by huge increases in helmet wearing from that period onward) so as this tech advances, the skill level of motoring has gone backwards by a lot. Isn't it about 4% of the driving population that don't have licenses or any of the other bits of paper to be legal on the roads anyway, I reckon it'll probably be much higher than that.

Things just cannot go on as they are and yet it will, there will be no changes to the law that benefits safety, no changes to instruction nor checking all drivers continually. We've had useless DRLs, allowed intensely bright headlamps that blind, allowed entertainment units in motors that have screens as big as a large laptop and more so that motorists can be even more distracted even if they don't have sat nav or their phones to stare at. Caught with the phone/device being used whilst driving should come with the same penalty as drink driving, that it isn't is criminal.

Nope, focusing on learner instruction on Sat nav use and parking on the wrong side of the road and not bothering to use indicators as the norm on these manoeuvres - I see this virtually every day on the estate road and infuriates me smething chronic as does the overtaking of parked vehicles so I can just drive right at you learner driving, one where apparently-3" is plenty of room! :twisted:
Meh


+1 old chap
pete75
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by pete75 »

The utility cyclist wrote:As for the 'older drivers don't speed', well I see plenty of the retirees/well over 70 bombing it and not just on higher speed roads, urban roads too were they are well in excess of 30mph don't people kid themselves that crumblies don't drive fast!



The use of an abusive term like that to describe older people is a good indicator of your prejudice against them. It negates the validity of what you say.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I used to know quite a few old people who used the term "crumblies" about themselves. Offence is subjective in many things and I suspect such a word is treated as a sign of endearment towards the group of old people. Besides the poster who used it might be of an age that would fit into that term. If he felt offence by it why would he use it.

As I said, subjective and probably a sign you have got defensive over this topic. Don't you like discussions where age is at the core of it? I'm pretty sure you've made comments about younger drivers, cyclists or other group that could offend too. Offence is afterall possible to find in everything of you're looking.

Nearly forgot to say, a single word does not negate all the other words used. Take that word out and the message of the rest of his post remains.
Steady rider
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Steady rider »

Some older people have good eyesight and perhaps keep up driving habits from years ago - too fast perhaps for conditions - and other older people know their eyesight is not what it was and drive a bit slower. Accident rate v age for drivers, any info?
Tangled Metal
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Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Generally older people are involved in fewer accidents than young people apparently. As someone said there's reasons why this is a misleading bit of information relating to the issue of being fit to drive. It doesn't factor in typical driving times (off peak driving safer than peak driving), miles travelled per journey (longer journeys increase risk of accident I believe), etc.
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