Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5063
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Tangled Metal » 28 Jan 2019, 4:20pm

I don't suppose elderly drivers wake up and go out for a drive thinking "today in going to drive dangerously!" That doesn't mean they won't drive dangerously, just the intention isn't there.

There's unlikely to be complete agreement about one group of drivers on here. The most likely agreement is wholesale control of drivers. Check the driving standards of all who hold a licence on a regular basis and to not be afraid to take licences away. Plus my biggest annoyance, take away driving licences at 12 points instead of allowing hardship arguments. Make it a rigid points based system. No exceptions at all.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Jan 2019, 4:40pm

My vote would be for paying more attention to fuse length. Here's an example of somebody with a pretty short one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-47003888

AIUI, the power of the court to disqualify was there.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/ex ... ral-power/

I presume that's more up-to-date than I am. I thought I had read some cases suggesting that what looks like a general power was still limited to offences involving a vehicle, although the case in my link did involve one.

Airsporter1st
Posts: 561
Joined: 8 Oct 2016, 3:14pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Airsporter1st » 28 Jan 2019, 6:01pm

One thing is almost certain IMHO - if compulsory retesting above a certain age is introduced, it will primarily be viewed by the government of the day as yet another great way to increase taxation. The net result is that driving in later years will become the province of the wealthy, with the less well off disadvantaged yet again.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2169
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby The utility cyclist » 28 Jan 2019, 7:16pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I don't suppose elderly drivers wake up and go out for a drive thinking "today in going to drive dangerously!" That doesn't mean they won't drive dangerously, just the intention isn't there.

There's unlikely to be complete agreement about one group of drivers on here. The most likely agreement is wholesale control of drivers. Check the driving standards of all who hold a licence on a regular basis and to not be afraid to take licences away. Plus my biggest annoyance, take away driving licences at 12 points instead of allowing hardship arguments. Make it a rigid points based system. No exceptions at all.


Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1129
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Oldjohnw » 28 Jan 2019, 8:27pm

The Utility cyclist wrote:

Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.



I wonder if this statement might be explained, please? It reads as if you consider that someone who has been driving for over 50 years is not just failing now through frailty but has always been a bad driver, killing other road users.

I may have misunderstood in which case I apologise.
John

Cycling and recycling

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5063
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Tangled Metal » 28 Jan 2019, 9:14pm

Not sure but I'd have thought someone gradually changes their driving as times change. So as road habits change, driver habits change too. A 70 year old driver won't drive like they did when 50 which wasn't like when they were 30. Certainly my driving when early 20s isn't like now 20 years on. Early 20s was when my driving was probably the most dangerous. I was very careful from 17 until after 21.

pete75
Posts: 11065
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby pete75 » 28 Jan 2019, 10:16pm

Airsporter1st wrote:One thing is almost certain IMHO - if compulsory retesting above a certain age is introduced, it will primarily be viewed by the government of the day as yet another great way to increase taxation. The net result is that driving in later years will become the province of the wealthy, with the less well off disadvantaged yet again.


The elderly turn out to vote in great numbers. No party wants to annoy them. It won't happen.

pete75
Posts: 11065
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby pete75 » 28 Jan 2019, 10:21pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I don't suppose elderly drivers wake up and go out for a drive thinking "today in going to drive dangerously!" That doesn't mean they won't drive dangerously, just the intention isn't there.

There's unlikely to be complete agreement about one group of drivers on here. The most likely agreement is wholesale control of drivers. Check the driving standards of all who hold a licence on a regular basis and to not be afraid to take licences away. Plus my biggest annoyance, take away driving licences at 12 points instead of allowing hardship arguments. Make it a rigid points based system. No exceptions at all.


Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.


And there speaks an expert on substandard driving - his own being so substandard he's had four lots of penalty points.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2169
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby The utility cyclist » 28 Jan 2019, 10:54pm

pete75 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I don't suppose elderly drivers wake up and go out for a drive thinking "today in going to drive dangerously!" That doesn't mean they won't drive dangerously, just the intention isn't there.

There's unlikely to be complete agreement about one group of drivers on here. The most likely agreement is wholesale control of drivers. Check the driving standards of all who hold a licence on a regular basis and to not be afraid to take licences away. Plus my biggest annoyance, take away driving licences at 12 points instead of allowing hardship arguments. Make it a rigid points based system. No exceptions at all.


Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.


And there speaks an expert on substandard driving - his own being so substandard he's had four lots of penalty points.

There speaks someone ignorant of facts, I guess you ignored what I said re unfair points but more costly to fight, yeah thought so, you being an expert and all!
Unlike them, I'm happy to be retested and have my driving scrutinised every year despite having never put anyone in fear of harm, unlike most drivers, a bit like my continual scrutiny every second of when I do drive :roll: Unlike someone this afternoon that close passed me at excess speed on a 30mph residential road, oh yeah it was yet another CRUMBLY driver who clearly has no concept of safe driving and was utterly oblivious :evil:

pete75
Posts: 11065
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby pete75 » 28 Jan 2019, 11:02pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
pete75 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.


And there speaks an expert on substandard driving - his own being so substandard he's had four lots of penalty points.

There speaks someone ignorant of facts, I guess you ignored what I said re unfair points but more costly to fight, yeah thought so, you being an expert and all!


Oh yeah of course you didn't deserve them. That's what they all say on the ABD website - totally unfair all these speeding fines , just a way to fleece drivers. I don't believe them and I don't believe you. Totall

basingstoke123
Posts: 137
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 10:05pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby basingstoke123 » 29 Jan 2019, 1:14am

ThePinkOne wrote:
atoz wrote:When people live in areas that have no, or minimal public transport they are making a choice....

But to live in such areas and run a car you have to have the income to do it....

If you can afford to live in these sorts of rural areas, you can afford to move to more urban locations. That's the choice you have to make, if you take a responsible attitude to driving.


...

Then the rich people in towns 50 or more miles away realised houses there were (for them) cheap and bought them as second homes- and no it wasn't locals selling out. Many of the village houses were rented from the local estate which then sold them on for loads of £££££ when eldely tenants moved out or the tenancy was otherwise up for renewal- the youngsters could not afford to buy or rent on local wages. (We used to joke in school that you could always tell a weekend place as it had new double glazing and central heating- luxuries which many locals couldn't afford and the landlords didn't provide).

...

Those elderly few-% of locals left are stuck, the shops have long gone as the weekenders only come a few weekends a year and leave the place empty (or maybe lease a few days in summer to tourists) but the tourists/weekenders all arrive with a boot-load of shopping from the town supemarket.

Rather than forcing these non-rich people to leave their homes and move into a smaller and less nice property in a town because of being unable to drive, maybe you should target those people who use cars to visit their weekend place. If locals lived there, then public transport and local services (shops etc) become viable again. You don't need "original locals" just locals- families who want to put down roots in the area.
...

TPO


Cunobelin wrote:
Ron wrote:
mattsccm wrote:Any rural dweller will tell you that a car is essential.

A popular argument, but for many present rural dwellers, if they had not had a car in the first place, or been unable to drive for any reason they would never have moved to a rural location.


The opposite is actually the real problem.

Many rural communities are having problems because people are being either forced or choose to move away.

These are not people who have moved there, rather those who have been there for all there lives, and often second or third generation.

Image


Agreeing with TPO and Cunobelin

Do not confuse rural folk born and breed with those from towns and cities who live town based lives in rural areas or treat it as a holiday destination. The later did make a life style choice that requires car dependency. They can afford the costs. They often can afford to buy older properties in need of renovation and do them up, which the previous owner could not afford to do. Those born in rural areas have chosen to live there in the same way that those born in the UK have chosen to live here instead of moving somewhere with better weather (e.g. South of France), or lower taxes (e.g. USA, Estonia), or better prospects (I will let others make suggestions).

Most people living in country areas do move into town when or after they retire so that they are close to shops, doctors, local services, and so that they are not stuck when the day comes that they can no longer drive. My parents did. My grandparents (both sides) did. Many other people I know have done so. For house owners, their old house (literally in many cases) effectively becomes their pension when they move into a modern but cheaper house. But not for tenants.

But for some people, the town or village that they retired to 20 years ago, has gradually lost its bank(s), shops, the bus service too limited (and soon won't be).

Not everyone living in rural areas is well off. Deprivation is a serious but largely hidden problem.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9037
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Cunobelin » 29 Jan 2019, 6:36am

basingstoke123 wrote:
ThePinkOne wrote:
atoz wrote:When people live in areas that have no, or minimal public transport they are making a choice....

But to live in such areas and run a car you have to have the income to do it....

If you can afford to live in these sorts of rural areas, you can afford to move to more urban locations. That's the choice you have to make, if you take a responsible attitude to driving.


...

Then the rich people in towns 50 or more miles away realised houses there were (for them) cheap and bought them as second homes- and no it wasn't locals selling out. Many of the village houses were rented from the local estate which then sold them on for loads of £££££ when eldely tenants moved out or the tenancy was otherwise up for renewal- the youngsters could not afford to buy or rent on local wages. (We used to joke in school that you could always tell a weekend place as it had new double glazing and central heating- luxuries which many locals couldn't afford and the landlords didn't provide).

...

Those elderly few-% of locals left are stuck, the shops have long gone as the weekenders only come a few weekends a year and leave the place empty (or maybe lease a few days in summer to tourists) but the tourists/weekenders all arrive with a boot-load of shopping from the town supemarket.

Rather than forcing these non-rich people to leave their homes and move into a smaller and less nice property in a town because of being unable to drive, maybe you should target those people who use cars to visit their weekend place. If locals lived there, then public transport and local services (shops etc) become viable again. You don't need "original locals" just locals- families who want to put down roots in the area.
...

TPO


Cunobelin wrote:
Ron wrote:A popular argument, but for many present rural dwellers, if they had not had a car in the first place, or been unable to drive for any reason they would never have moved to a rural location.


The opposite is actually the real problem.

Many rural communities are having problems because people are being either forced or choose to move away.

These are not people who have moved there, rather those who have been there for all there lives, and often second or third generation.

Image


Agreeing with TPO and Cunobelin

Do not confuse rural folk born and breed with those from towns and cities who live town based lives in rural areas or treat it as a holiday destination. The later did make a life style choice that requires car dependency. They can afford the costs. They often can afford to buy older properties in need of renovation and do them up, which the previous owner could not afford to do. Those born in rural areas have chosen to live there in the same way that those born in the UK have chosen to live here instead of moving somewhere with better weather (e.g. South of France), or lower taxes (e.g. USA, Estonia), or better prospects (I will let others make suggestions).

Most people living in country areas do move into town when or after they retire so that they are close to shops, doctors, local services, and so that they are not stuck when the day comes that they can no longer drive. My parents did. My grandparents (both sides) did. Many other people I know have done so. For house owners, their old house (literally in many cases) effectively becomes their pension when they move into a modern but cheaper house. But not for tenants.

But for some people, the town or village that they retired to 20 years ago, has gradually lost its bank(s), shops, the bus service too limited (and soon won't be).

Not everyone living in rural areas is well off. Deprivation is a serious but largely hidden problem.


One of these he reasons I chose the diagram was the mention of younger people. What used to happen was that the Parents would move as they got older, but their children would "inherit" the rural home. This maintains an age range

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5063
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby Tangled Metal » 29 Jan 2019, 8:33am

In our family most of the elderly members either lived near younger family members, lived in areas with his transport or moved to one of those kinds of locations. It was a conscious thought process that they took before age related issues kicked in.

The one exception drove a car, because they needed to, until a bad accident took the car away (and nearly their life). They then found that they did have the ability to get around allbeit in a much reduced way. That was with severe disability in one of them. Rural/Community buses and taxis. I think they ended up with a better social life as a result but only because of their particular situation.

My point is rambling as usual but if you are getting on in years and intend to drive as long as you can then still look into alternative options. You might end up realising there's options there afterall. Option to move or find there's community based transport. You might end up needing to make a change so it's probably prudent to look at your options before your need them.

BTW the kind of decision an older person might make for age related reasons I made in my late 20s when I bought my house. It had four means to get into the nearest town. These include train, bus, car and bike. At 7 miles out I could easily walk it there and back if I needed to (now but perhaps not at 80+).

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby thirdcrank » 29 Jan 2019, 8:43am

Oldjohnw wrote:
The Utility cyclist wrote:

Correct, however given these are the people of the generation of drivers that killed most road users/cyclists, many have been driving sub-standard/dangerously for best part of half a century and more unchanged in their ways.



I wonder if this statement might be explained, please? It reads as if you consider that someone who has been driving for over 50 years is not just failing now through frailty but has always been a bad driver, killing other road users.

I may have misunderstood in which case I apologise.


I was hoping, perhaps in vain, that this would be answered.

pete75
Posts: 11065
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Elderly drivers: when is it time to hand over the car keys?

Postby pete75 » 30 Jan 2019, 3:52pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Ron wrote:
mattsccm wrote:Any rural dweller will tell you that a car is essential.

A popular argument, but for many present rural dwellers, if they had not had a car in the first place, or been unable to drive for any reason they would never have moved to a rural location.


The opposite is actually the real problem.

Many rural communities are having problems because people are being either forced or choose to move away.

These are not people who have moved there, rather those who have been there for all there lives, and often second or third generation.

Image


I don't think that diagram is quite correct. It's investment not lack of it that has reduced job opportunities in rural areas.

Investment in large, expensive farm machinery has taken jobs away. Take a friends farm for example. Not a big farm just 550 acres. Late seventies there were nine people working on it including him and his father. By the year 2000 it was just him alone and a couple of students taken on to cart corn in harvest.

Main employment in rural areas was in agriculture, forestry and quarrying/mining. Go back fifty years around here and all three employed quite a few people. There were nine people employed in woods local to this village. The Forestry Commision actually built nine houses for them to live in . Five miles away there was another group of six forestry commission houses. Several other villages have FC houses dotted around. The later ones are easy to recognise because they're built from wood. The earlier look like good quality fifties council houses. There's now a part time forester covering all the local woods. When there's any clearance there's a couple of blokes with a big Valmet tree harvester and a tractor and log trailer.
The ironstone quarries and mine closed down altogether 40 years ago.

So farming jobs vastly reduced through investment in machinery and ditto for forestry jobs. Iron ore quarries and mine closed due to steel making investment in other countries.