Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

atlas_shrugged
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Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby atlas_shrugged » 30 Jan 2019, 11:53am

God bless Chis Boardman. He walks on water IMHO:

APPCG‏ @allpartycycling · 37m37 minutes ago
A big emphasis is training up engineers and there will also be a design manual for Manchester, says @Chris_Boardman

Two brilliant things being done here:
1) Create a Manchester cycle and walkway design spec
2) Train engineers to build to this specification

So should we name and shame LAs that have no specification and praise LAs that do have a specification for their cycle/walk ways? I will start:

Praise: Manchester, Oxfordshire
Shame: Cambridgeshire

Please add to this list.

thirdcrank
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Jan 2019, 12:11pm

God bless Chis Boardman


Sorry for the immediate deviation but let's be thinking about him tomorrow when the driver convicted of killing his mother appears for sentencing.

atlas_shrugged
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby atlas_shrugged » 30 Jan 2019, 2:30pm

@thirdcrank +1 on that

I just can not understand LAs not publishing a design specification of cycle/walk ways that would make active travel safer. I too will think about CB and the sentencing tomorrow.

reohn2
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jan 2019, 5:34pm

It should be central government publishing (high) standards for cycle infrastructure build,unfortunately we live in a backward country where such standards are concerned.
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landsurfer
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby landsurfer » 30 Jan 2019, 5:38pm

I blame BREXIT ......

Reality check time;
Currently the biggest risk to all infrastructure, rail and aerospace projects is in the recruiting and retention of Engineers, Technicians and Mechanics, of all disciplines.
A culture of low investment in hands on skills combined with a refusal of multi-national companies to directly employ this skills group has led to the "butterfly" approach to employment.
I can employ an engineer on £40k tomorrow , but he is likely to be offered £42k the next day and will jump ship.
This is killing the Rail industry in particular.
As soon as you get your infrastructure training programme in place you will find the "concrete pourers" will hoover up the students with promises of mad salaries ... and there is no consistent support for your project.
One major project we supply parts to has seen the Lead Technician (Super Tech ) change 3 times in the last 12 months.
The professional Lead Engineer 4 times ....
While UK industry insists on contract, self employed staff, nothing will change.
Train your engineers for the great Manchester Cycling Infrastructure Project ..... and watch them disappear into contract companies and consultants companies..... Alledgley .. :(
Last edited by landsurfer on 30 Jan 2019, 5:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jan 2019, 5:46pm

landsurfer wrote:I blame BREXIT ......

I blame a government that's a complete and utter waste of space and that couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery where cycling is concerned but can spend billions on roads and the white elephant that's HS2,YVMV mine won't.
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 Jan 2019, 7:03pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby Tangled Metal » 30 Jan 2019, 5:47pm

landsurfer wrote:I blame BREXIT ......

I blame the tories. Or the weather. Or cyclists. Who's fault is it this time?

landsurfer
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby landsurfer » 30 Jan 2019, 5:54pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:I blame BREXIT ......

I blame the tories. Or the weather. Or cyclists. Who's fault is it this time?


I think it's the "MEEK" .... they may inherit the earth, but their having a very, very, bad time at the moment.








(apologies to the LOB and Python)
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PT1029
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby PT1029 » 30 Jan 2019, 8:09pm

"Praise: Manchester, Oxfordshire" not sure where this comes from.
OxfordshireCC are better than they were, making good efforts in places, but its the engineers who cock all up for cycle facilities once they get their hands on the plans, indeed, often it could be said they don't even adhere to their own LTP in provision.
We need our engineers* training too (*the ones still here after 3 rounds or redundancies that is).

fastpedaller
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby fastpedaller » 31 Jan 2019, 9:17am

landsurfer wrote:I blame BREXIT ......

Reality check time;
Currently the biggest risk to all infrastructure, rail and aerospace projects is in the recruiting and retention of Engineers, Technicians and Mechanics, of all disciplines.
A culture of low investment in hands on skills combined with a refusal of multi-national companies to directly employ this skills group has led to the "butterfly" approach to employment.
I can employ an engineer on £40k tomorrow , but he is likely to be offered £42k the next day and will jump ship.
This is killing the Rail industry in particular.
As soon as you get your infrastructure training programme in place you will find the "concrete pourers" will hoover up the students with promises of mad salaries ... and there is no consistent support for your project.
One major project we supply parts to has seen the Lead Technician (Super Tech ) change 3 times in the last 12 months.
The professional Lead Engineer 4 times ....
While UK industry insists on contract, self employed staff, nothing will change.
Train your engineers for the great Manchester Cycling Infrastructure Project ..... and watch them disappear into contract companies and consultants companies..... Alledgley .. :(


The situation has been going on for many years, and starts at schools where the pupils are led towards working in service section type jopbs "because working with your hands will get you nowhere" BTDT.

pwa
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby pwa » 31 Jan 2019, 9:43am

The people who design cycle facilities don't usually get their hands dirty. Less well paid manual workers do that.

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mjr
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby mjr » 31 Jan 2019, 11:17am

PT1029 wrote:"Praise: Manchester, Oxfordshire" not sure where this comes from.
OxfordshireCC are better than they were, making good efforts in places, but its the engineers who cock all up for cycle facilities once they get their hands on the plans, indeed, often it could be said they don't even adhere to their own LTP in provision.
We need our engineers* training too (*the ones still here after 3 rounds or redundancies that is).

Yes, I think Oxfordshire talk a good talk but what I've seen is only about as good as Cambridge - and lately, Cambridge has been building better stuff than I've seen in Oxford (Hills Road, Huntingdon Road) but that's confined to the city and the rest of Cambridgeshire is mostly not building stuff (there's a new shortcut from Quy to Lode but there's still long-standing gaps like Ely-Soham (part junk, part gap) and Ely-Cambridge (several incomplete routes). Maybe Oxfordshire builds outside Oxford.

Praise: Manchester, London, maybe?

Norfolk started its own spec but it seemed to be abandoned in favour of reusing London's, last I saw, with slight misinterpretations sometimes.
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mjr
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby mjr » 31 Jan 2019, 11:19am

pwa wrote:The people who design cycle facilities don't usually get their hands dirty. Less well paid manual workers do that.

Part of the problem seems to be that several hands can change good designs after it's had democratic approval, without any reporting back to the democracy that they've effed up the plans: the street furniture teams (lights, signals), the "road safety" auditors and even the final builders all sometimes make changes and they're usually not improvements.
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MikeF
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby MikeF » 31 Jan 2019, 11:20pm

The problem seems to be that most designers don't cycle on the roads so they don't don't what is needed. (Cycling is something cyclists do and not a thing that normal people do.) Rail engineers in general are not the best people for designing for cycling. In fact they would be better designing for cycle carriage on trains, which is generally so abysmal at present.

Highways England use WSP for design and so do West Sussex CC and Birmingham. The WSP website shows a cyclist on a section of painted road :evil: . The cycling section WSP designed alongside the A21 between Tonbridge and Pembury leaves a lot to be desired - but the road section is very good with gentle gradients. Similarly the A23 in West Sussex south of Handcross is just a token effort.

The design of Greater Redhill routes in Surrey (not sure who SurreyCC use) is mainly a lip service effort - much of it shared path but meant to encourage sustainable travel. Part of the problem, in my view, is Sustrans which gives the "green light" on these poor schemes.

The approach on roads ( with few exceptions) always seems to be design for motor vehicles and try to fit cycling around that design. It should be the reverse.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Manchester - A big emphasis is training up engineers

Postby Wanlock Dod » 1 Feb 2019, 9:59am

The whole of Scotland has had a design standard since 2010, and 3% of the transport budget since then to spend on it. In 2017 when it was found that nothing had actually been achieved in terms of encouraging anybody to cycle they decided to double the available budget so that it would be possible to double the rate at which they waste the available funds. As far as I am aware the design standard has been widely ignored, and all efforts seem to have been focused on getting the ****** cyclists out of the way of the important traffic. Around where I live cycling has been considerably more marginalised than it was a decade ago, when very few people participated anyway.