East Ridng rural village under threat

Steady rider
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East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Steady rider » 8 Feb 2019, 5:46am

A good cycling area would be harmed if a plan for a mega prison goes ahead. A planning application for a large prison Category C prison with 1440 inmates, next to the existing high security prison in Full Sutton, East Riding of Yorkshire has raises concerns. It would result in about 2000 prisoner for the two. This would outnumber residents in Full Sutton village more than 4 to 1.

It would cover 50 acres and have 17 buildings, including 6 - 4 storey building about 14m high. It would have 388 parking spaces. The two prisons together would cover about 100 acres with 1.6 mile outside perimeter. It would be a large overbearing complex not suitable for a village location.

Drug use in this area is low but with 2 prisons, they could become a prime target for dealers, spreading drugs into the wider community. More than 10 prisoners per day could be released and there are concerns about prisoners being in the villages and with safety issues. It would be very harmful to the villages and towns in this area. Full Sutton has a population of about 470 people and people with young children would have concerns at allowing their children out playing or cycling. Over time the village population may decline with fewer young families moving in.

The local roads, Moor Road and Moor Lane (without pavements) could have 250% extra prison journeys and detract from the National Cycle Network, route 66, and the Minster Way walking route. Conditions for people walking, with dogs, jogging and cycling would be made much worse. Nearby villages with children going to school could encounter more traffic, adding to safety concerns.

The Traffic Assessment makes unreliable claims and assumptions:
a)
It claims:
The local highway authority has confirmed that the two committed developments outlined above are almost complete. As such, operational trips generated from the developments are likely to have been counted within the 2018 traffic survey data, used to form our 2018 baseline.
Approximately a third have been occupied.
b)
They assumed if 3 people visit they would use one vehicle.
Some may use 3 vehicles, some 2 and some one.
c)
They assumed 40% of visitors may use public transport.
The local bus service is infrequent and does not run on Sundays and the last bus to York is at 2.28pm.
d)
The travel plan submitted by the MOJ is deeply flawed. It is based on inmates having 1.2 visits per month. However, from the 2013 Peter Brett report commissioned by the MOJ (https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/site ... Prison.pdf ), which examined 4 existing Category B and C prisons, prisoners had on average just over 3 visits a month.
e)
in 2017 they stated prisoner were allowed one visit per month, when by law, they are allowed one visit per two weeks, they also used the 1.2 visits per month estimate in 2017 and 2018
f)
The traffic survey was on one day in October and could have underestimate year-round average travel because seasonal coastal business and visitors increases between spring and autumn.

For Stamford Bridge, with a single lane bridge, the AM peak period, the DoS (degree of saturation) was forecast to be 106.3% in 2017 and 100.3% in 2018. The Bridge, signal controlled junction, was modelled using LinSig v3. For LinSig, a Degree of Saturation (DoS) below 90% indicates that a junction operates within capacity for the assessed flows. Traffic uses minor roads as rat runs to bypass the single lane bridge, making cycling conditions worse.

A protest in Stamford Bridge for the 2 March at 2.00pm is being planned. The Planning Committee is due to hear the application at County Hall, Beverley, date to be determined.
Planning objections can be lodged
https://www.fspc.org.uk/parish-council/ ... objection/
https://www.eastriding.gov.uk/environme ... lications/
Current - status
Full Sutton
Outline - Erection of prison complex with associated perimeter fencing, access, parking, landscaping and infrastructure (access and scale to be considered) Open for comment icon
Land To The West Of HM Prison Full Sutton Moor Lane Full Sutton East Riding Of Yorkshire YO41 1PS
Ref. No: 18/04105/STOUT | Received: Tue 18 Dec 2018 | Validated: Tue 18 Dec 2018 | Status: Pending Consideration
Last edited by Steady rider on 14 Feb 2019, 5:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Oldjohnw » 8 Feb 2019, 5:56am

My long experience working around the priSon system is that there are no safety issues around prisons, even where there is Ann open aspect for some of the prison population. Further, house prices tend to increase. Local populations tend not to decline and facilities much as school, pubs and the village shop are squally more viable. Traffic, of course, is a problem.

The more serious issue is how poorly these large prisons actually address the criminality of the prisoners and how large our prison population has become making a market for these Titans. Our capacity for jailing people in the UK is only exceeded in Europe by Turkey and Russia.
John

Cycling and recycling

pwa
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby pwa » 8 Feb 2019, 9:11am

We have a modern prison a few miles down the road and when it was proposed there was a lot of local concern about what it would do to the area. It was put adjacent to a nice village. But to be honest, it has worked out okay. The road past the prison was a very quiet road, and now it is a bit less quiet when shifts are changing. But the area is still quiet, though with a few more jobs for people who don't mind working in a prison.

Steady rider
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Steady rider » 8 Feb 2019, 9:15am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nor ... s-44818506

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44851028

The area currently has a low drugs problem, about a third of national levels. It could increase drug related problems.

Full Sutton does not have any shops, pubs or schools.

Evidence given to the House of Commons Justice Committee detailed;
As a result of the Government’s plans for building new large-scale prisons, opening new houseblocks within the perimeters of existing prisons, and closing smaller ones, there has been a significant drift towards larger penal institutions. The number of such prisons has nearly trebled in the past decade. The existing strategy for estate modernisation will result in almost half of people in prison in England and Wales being held in prisons holding over 1,000. There was some disagreement among our witnesses on the relationship between the size of prisons and their effectiveness. Kevin Lockyer, formerly of NOMS, believed that the key determinant of the decency, safety and effectiveness of a prison was not its size, but its age, and pointed to the effectiveness of large multi-purpose prisons. On the other hand, Professor Jewkes of the University of Leicester, the Howard League for Penal Reform (the Howard League) and the Prison Reform Trust (PRT) argued that there was a growing body of academic research that found that ‘old’ did not necessarily mean ‘bad’, and that prisons worked more effectively to rehabilitate prisoners when small in size, located within close proximity to prisoners’ home communities, and built with principles of normality and humanisation in mind. This is the philosophy adopted in Denmark, which we observed when we were there. Dr Kimmett Edgar of PRT gave us his reading of the evidence:
I appreciate that there is a position from the Treasury and a position from a prison management point of view. I did a little digging prior to coming here, looking at inspection reports and prisoner surveys. If we take five large, new prisons and five small prisons, in almost everything that matters it is very obvious that prisoners are worse off in large prisons. On safety, something like 22%—I can give you the exact figures—felt unsafe compared with 15% in smaller prisons. In terms of knowing who to approach for help with accommodation and employment, again smaller prisons were clearly providing a better experience for prisoners
.

The Prison Reform Trust published details showing the number dying in prisons has increased from approximately 150 in 2000 to 250 in 2015. Similarly, the number of serious assaults has increased from approximately 800 to 2800. Large prisons create perhaps less of a humane atmosphere and drugs use results in unstable inmates leaving with ongoing problems. The information strongly indicates that with larger prisons there is an increased risk of injury and death.

I think the MoJ have tried to mislead over the traffic assessments and they should be investigated.

Steady rider
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Steady rider » 8 Feb 2019, 9:26am

Staff from the current prison often use Moor Road, part of route 66 NCN, and it has been an issue with speeding.

Stamford Bridge has long traffic queues at times,
https://stamfordbridgebypass.wordpress. ... cial-case/

Prisons need to be in the right place, this particular one would make transport issues worse for motorists, cyclists and walkers.

pwa
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby pwa » 8 Feb 2019, 9:32am

Steady rider wrote:Staff from the current prison often use Moor Road, part of route 66 NCN, and it has been an issue with speeding.

Stamford Bridge has long traffic queues at times,
https://stamfordbridgebypass.wordpress. ... cial-case/

Prisons need to be in the right place, this particular one would make transport issues worse for motorists, cyclists and walkers.

Yes. Our nearby Parc Prison is a short distance from the M4 and vehicles moving between the prison and the motorway pass no homes.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/HMP+P ... d-3.563143

So the traffic does not affect the local community at all.

reohn2
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby reohn2 » 8 Feb 2019, 9:39am

Recreational drug use=raised crime figures=more people in prison=need for more prisons.

A high percentage of crime is drug related,at both small and large degree,the questions that need asking are:-
Why do so many people need drugs to live?
Why do we let the worst of criminal elements control drug distribution?
What can society do about it?

The society I live in doesn't seem to be even asking the first two questions,and the powers that be seem to be responding to the third question very poorly indeed IMO.

Building more and bigger prisons is yet another attempt at solving the problems of society by treating the symptoms not the cause!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

thirdcrank
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Feb 2019, 10:09am

A lot if different things are being jumbled into one here. This is yet more building development. However, once built, it will generate less traffic than a housing estate and much less than a retail park.

Steady rider
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Steady rider » 8 Feb 2019, 10:46am

The village of Full Sutton is located adjacent to the Wolds and the Vale of York, an attractive location with several villages nearby and is on the Minster Way walking trail, that uses Moor Road and Moor Lane (narrow roads without footpaths) to pass the existing prison, that is well set back and surrounded by trees. Cycle routes promoted by Pocklington TC and Stamford Bridge PC use these roads as part of their routes. Moor Road is part of the National Cycle Network Route 66. Stamford Bridge PC have recently written to the prison governor expressing concern at the speed some of their staff drive on Moor Road. An additional prison would more than double the number of car prison journeys on these roads and result in detracting from the cycle routes and increasing danger to people jogging, pedestrians, cyclists and all road users. Traffic on other roads would also increase, via Pocklington, Wilberfoss, Fangfoss, Bolton and adding to concerns already raised by other large developments.

Traffic estimates were made for the previous application that showed levels of traffic on the A166 in Stamford Bridge exceeded the single lane bridge’s capacity in the peak morning period at 106%. The proposed prison would result in extra car journeys in an area with an already serious traffic problem. One problem for Stamford Bridge is emergency vehicles cannot be seen from the other side of the bridge, so they have to wait for the signals and sometimes long queues add to the problem of getting to the bridge. With an average of 3 emergency vehicles per day going to the Stamford Bridge area, any extra delays at all, are putting lives at risk and extra delays would result from the proposal. The large Cat C prison at Wrexham has on average 13 ambulances per month visit. Not typical of a housing estate or shopping centre.

pwa
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby pwa » 8 Feb 2019, 11:15am

Housing estates and shopping developments generate a lot more traffic per hectare than prisons, though I'm not sure why we are making that comparison.

pete75
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby pete75 » 8 Feb 2019, 3:17pm

The OP claims the prison will cause a lot of problems. Wouldn't it cause these wherever it is located?

Oldjohnw
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Oldjohnw » 8 Feb 2019, 4:02pm

However distasteful the idea, the fact is that prisons don't cause problems to the nearby community. If society has a problem with prisons they should tell governments to cut the population.

Incidentally, I was a witness at the above select committee. I am opposed to these large prisons: just not for the reasons given in the OP's quotations.
John

Cycling and recycling

Steady rider
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby Steady rider » 8 Feb 2019, 4:37pm

https://www.google.com/maps/place/HMP+P ... d-3.563143

The OP claims the prison will cause a lot of problems. Wouldn't it cause these wherever it is located?


if located away from residential locations or have direct access to a major road, then the minor roads could be less affected by traffic.

However distasteful the idea, the fact is that prisons don't cause problems to the nearby community

visual impact, size, traffic, light pollution at night, prisoners may be released at the gate, if 10 per day - some may use the local bus, out numbering locals, drug dealers looking to have the products delivered, trying to make local connections, possible spreading of drugs to the wider community. Nice to think they don't cause a problem, but it may depend on the circumstances.
The Chief Executive of the Howard League of Penal Reform say the prison in question would be harmful to the community.

geocycle
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby geocycle » 8 Feb 2019, 5:17pm

I guess it does depend on specifics. I used to live near Lancaster Castle, a prison for a 1000 years until a few years ago. I was only really aware of its function on one occasion where an attempted escape resulted in a helicopter overhead shining a search light into gardens for most of the night. Two prisoners with a good head for heights had got onto the battlements and put a ladder across to a tree. I don't recall extra traffic associated with the prison except when the court was in session. Additional drug use was was invisible in the city context but might be more obvious at Full Sutton I suppose.

thirdcrank
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Re: East Ridng rural village under threat

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Feb 2019, 5:28pm

Steady rider wrote: ... The Chief Executive of the Howard League of Penal Reform say the prison in question would be harmful to the community.

Have you a link for that because I fancy that Frances Crook will have said much more about this than it would be harmful to Full Sutton?