"Elderly drivers can't cope with modern traffic" - wrong argument?

[Grandad]

The jurors' waiting room at Maidstone Crown Court is near the top of the building and overlooks a busy 2 bridge gyratory system over the River Medway. I once spent many hours with a birds eye view of the traffic and easily identified which drivers were local and which were not.

[sjs]

Cardiff City Council sent me a nice letter a few days ago which basically pointed out (with photo evidence) that my 20 year old daughter had, in a car registered to me, briefly entered a bus lane on a complicated bit of road late at night in pouring rain, with road markings less obvious than in good conditions. £35 fine, paid by me, of course.

But the point is, she is very young and inexperienced, not an elderly person rendered incompetent by age. It was youth and newness to driving that momentarily allowed her to be confused by the many road signs on an unfamiliar road. As a family we respect bus lanes, so as soon as she detected her error she moved over to where she should have been. But that is the sort of minor error that youth and inexperience leads to. It isn't just the old who get a bit confused by complicated road layouts.

Same thing happened to my daughter in Cambridge, going somewhere unfamiliar with navigation by a friend who does not drive. Cost me two fines incurred within a few minutes of each other.

[Cyril Haearn]

Through momentary inattention I found myself driving in a bus lane in London (not allowed), a motorcycle cop stopped me and administered a few 'impolite' words of warning/education, that is a good way to deal with inattentive/nasty drivers, more appropriate than a plain brown envelope weeks later. I was not old at the time

Would harsh words be appropriate for young female drivers?

[Cunobelin]

It seems to me that the biggest shortfall of driver testing is that it has never really tackled the assessment of someone's psychological suitability to drive. Even after conviction for a road-rage incident, there's no real system for measuring the length of a driver's fuse. Apart from things like drink and drugs, a san fairy ann attitude to risk-taking must be a common causative factor in crashes.

Bearing in mind that we've had a least two threads recently on the subject of older drivers (I'm including HRH in rollover) I'm left wandering what's inspired another.

I passed my driving test in the mid 1960's and I'd agree that the driving test in those good old days was simpler than it is today. Much is made of the inevitable deterioration which comes with ageing, yet the eyesight requirements for all ages are minimal in terms of driving at any speed and they have never been tightened, nor subject to much monitoring for any age group.

I can see that I was part of the wild younger generation in the swinging 60's but I don't accept a sort of communal responsibility for all the bad driving of that era and earlier, not least because my contemporaries were by no means the only people on the road at that time.

There was a project base on this where Aviva used psychometric testing on their drivers ives, then where a "risk" was perceived, gave remedial training. According too A

The project was successful on all three counts, resulting in the first prototype bus-driving simulator of its kind in the UK . Along with other risk management strategies, the research programme contributed to a £1 million per year reduction in insurance claims at Arriva’s UK bus business and an annual reduction in fault accidents of 6.5% over the four year period. Staff turnover and absenteeism were also reduced.

In the last four years, while the tests have been in use, the company has reduced fatalities involving its buses by 31%, Dr Dorn said.

[Cyril Haearn]

Fatalities? 31%? How many before and after?

[Cunobelin]

If Today’s cars were stripped of all the bolt on safety features, ambulance crews were restricted 1960s techniques and equipment and we done away with air ambulances then we would see death rates back up to 70s levels without any doubt. There is no excuse for drivers to flaunt the law, we now have the technology to identify poor driving and law breaking real time in the same way that super brakes, air bags and seat belts technologies protect the occupants - I wonder why car makers don’t simply fit them as the next stage in safety features? Surely new car sales would zoom up with such an attractive feature!

The big indicator here is how poor driving is.

We have the best brakes and tyre in teh history of motoring, yet every junction needs special surfaces because drivers "CannoT" stop at a junction without them.

As has been said before, we may have improved the vehicles, but the driver hasn't seen a single significant improvement since the invention of the wheel

[Cyril Haearn]

Drivers have got worse, lazier, double-declutching is no longer taught for example
They might only have to learn more theory to pass the test, then promptly forget/ignore it

[kwackers]

Drivers have got worse, lazier, double-declutching is no longer taught for example
They might only have to learn more theory to pass the test, then promptly forget/ignore it

Double de-clutching was a mechanical necessity. These days completely pointless, why would you teach it?

Modern cars handle so well and the computer assisted traction/stability control manages the car in dodgy situations such that it flatters crap drivers.
Fast steering racks, excellent tyres and everyone whizzes around their favourite bends with barely any effort.

The car imbues such a sense of control your average driver feels like a champ, right up to the point they it all goes tits, they lose control and then suddenly they realise just how fast they're going, how little time they have, how poor the brakes really are and just how much mass the car has.

It's all an illusion.

[pwa]

Through momentary inattention I found myself driving in a bus lane in London (not allowed), a motorcycle cop stopped me and administered a few 'impolite' words of warning/education, that is a good way to deal with inattentive/nasty drivers, more appropriate than a plain brown envelope weeks later. I was not old at the time

Would harsh words be appropriate for young female drivers?

I know a few people who have been fined for making genuine mistakes, harmlessly, in Cardiff. Not speeding. I had one myself for doing a right turn that, apparently, was forbidden. I didn't see the sign. Fair cop. But the road was empty and the turn, though wrong, was a safe low speed one. A warning letter would have been enough to stop me doing it in future. Instead I got the £35 fine that Cardiff City Council is notorious for.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4862704 ... 6?hl=en-GB

This is the junction, and you can see the no-right-turn sign integrated with the traffic lights themselves, an arrangement I wasn't familiar with, so I overlooked them. I had a passenger telling me to turn right at the time. Unlike in the photo there was no traffic as it was early on a Sunday morning. The signs were there and I should have seen them, but on unfamiliar ground, trying to navigate to an unfamiliar destination and with other stuff going on, I made a harmless mistake. It is easily done.

[kwackers]

I know a few people who have been fined for making genuine mistakes, harmlessly, in Cardiff. Not speeding. I had one myself for doing a right turn that, apparently, was forbidden. I didn't see the sign. Fair cop. But the road was empty and the turn, though wrong, was a safe low speed one. A warning letter would have been enough to stop me doing it in future. Instead I got the £35 fine that Cardiff City Council is notorious for.

How would they know your mistake was genuine?

I see loads of people make turns they're not supposed to all the time. Can't see how you can differentiate from the chancers.
Plus of course the argument would be that if you didn't see the sign then you weren't paying enough attention so perhaps a perfectly fair cop after all?

[pwa]

I know a few people who have been fined for making genuine mistakes, harmlessly, in Cardiff. Not speeding. I had one myself for doing a right turn that, apparently, was forbidden. I didn't see the sign. Fair cop. But the road was empty and the turn, though wrong, was a safe low speed one. A warning letter would have been enough to stop me doing it in future. Instead I got the £35 fine that Cardiff City Council is notorious for.

How would they know your mistake was genuine?

I see loads of people make turns they're not supposed to all the time. Can't see how you can differentiate from the chancers.
Plus of course the argument would be that if you didn't see the sign then you weren't paying enough attention so perhaps a perfectly fair cop after all?

Are you asking me to prove it? It is my judgement that they made genuine mistakes, because they are people I know well enough to make that call. My own mistake was genuine so I know it can easily happen.

[ThePinkOne]

Drivers have got worse, lazier, double-declutching is no longer taught for example
They might only have to learn more theory to pass the test, then promptly forget/ignore it

Double de-clutching was a mechanical necessity. These days completely pointless, why would you teach it?

Modern cars handle so well and the computer assisted traction/stability control manages the car in dodgy situations such that it flatters crap drivers.
Fast steering racks, excellent tyres and everyone whizzes around their favourite bends with barely any effort.

The car imbues such a sense of control your average driver feels like a champ, right up to the point they it all goes tits, they lose control and then suddenly they realise just how fast they're going, how little time they have, how poor the brakes really are and just how much mass the car has.

It's all an illusion.

Double de-clutching can still be useful to be kind to your gearbox and get a better life out of it, especially if you have an older Big Van or sommat. It is also linked (IMO) to a more mindful way of driving- looking ahead, anticipating, being ready in an unhurried manner. Like putting handbrake on and into neutral when stopped at a set of traffic lights.

To the OP- yup, wrong argument.

Kwackers- You're right about electronic "help" in cars, I think A-roads have gotten faster and more dangerous as a result.

In my Big Van (campervan) I have a really simple indicator of whether I'm driving smoothly and carefully enough. If I go into a curve a little bit fast even though the van would go around the corner OK, my tray of cups slides along the bench towards the sink, the cups ratting their warning. Any more and they would be in the sink/on the floor (I have not reached thst stage yet) . Nothing like a tray of cups on the bench in the back to promote a slower and more relaxed driving style. Only downside is when I drive carefully like that in my little car I get tailgated and angry gesticulations, whereas when I'm in the Big Van it doesn't happen so much (or if it does I don't see it as usually such muppets are so close I can't see their angry faces in my wing-mirrors).

I feel sorry for older drivers who started driving in a more courteous and less compex world. Many new road junctions are very complex, and seemingly less well designed (to save money ?)- thinking about that horrid M6 toll/M42 interchange- all on one level and requiring being in just the right lane at the right time. Since then, even more difficult layouts have been introduced. A good sat-nav with Lane Assist (saying exactly what lane to get into) can be a really useful tool in such situations.

As well as the usual VAG/BMW/Merc speeders, I also see in towns quite a lot of young lasses in little Corsa/Renault type things- most likely PCP and being driven like "I own the road". No doubt the stats will eventually catch up and like their male counterparts they will need black boxes fitted to get insurance.

A friend's daughter works for an insurance company who specialises in insurance for "black box" fitted cars, I have to say I think it's the way to go.

I would have no objection to mandatory telemetrics linked to insurance and also being available to police after an alleged offence- and also a system that could identify cars without it from a distance so police could remove them from the road.

TPO

[kwackers]

Are you asking me to prove it? It is my judgement that they made genuine mistakes, because they are people I know well enough to make that call. My own mistake was genuine so I know it can easily happen.

I think you're being overly defensive.
I've no reason to believe it was anything other than a mistake but they've no reason to think it was anything other than you chancing your arm.
Anyway you still missed the sign...

Reminds me of my first ever speeding ticket, back in the late 70's. A 60mph road that just happened to have 200 yards of 30mph.
Got caught doing 55 in a 30, copper asked me if I knew why I'd been pulled. I genuinely thought the road was still a 60, after being issued a ticket I went back up to the top of the road to check and there as plain as day were the 30mph signs.
IMO that was a fair cop, I had no excuse for missing them.

[thirdcrank]

On a general level, people seem to have got so used to ignoring signs - including ignoring learning what they all mean - that they feel affronted when they are caught. I'm a strong supporter of the relevant highway authority being responsible for the enforcement of traffic management. The technology is now available and seems viable. Otherwise, we have the absurd situation where one public body puts up the signs and another enforces them, or doesn't, as the case may be.

This may be another example where a dashcam/helmet cam might be useful if the footage showed that the signs (including road markings) were damaged or missing.

Let's also remember that a lot of these schemes are designed to share that increasingly rare commodity, road space. Safety is only an issue to the extent that somebody ignoring the signs may feel the need to put their foot down or when others are surprised by the unexpected manoeuvre. My interpretation is that people ignoring traffic schemes are being greedy: helping themselves to more than their share of precious road space.

[pwa]

Are you asking me to prove it? It is my judgement that they made genuine mistakes, because they are people I know well enough to make that call. My own mistake was genuine so I know it can easily happen.

I think you're being overly defensive.
I've no reason to believe it was anything other than a mistake but they've no reason to think it was anything other than you chancing your arm.
Anyway you still missed the sign...

Reminds me of my first ever speeding ticket, back in the late 70's. A 60mph road that just happened to have 200 yards of 30mph.
Got caught doing 55 in a 30, copper asked me if I knew why I'd been pulled. I genuinely thought the road was still a 60, after being issued a ticket I went back up to the top of the road to check and there as plain as day were the 30mph signs.
IMO that was a fair cop, I had no excuse for missing them.

I stress that I am not talking about speeding signage, but the other sometimes confusing stuff such as no-right-turns. Especially if you are on an unfamiliar city centre road the signage and road markings can be overwhelming when you have also to interact with the vehicles / pedestrians around you and navigate.

You ask a good question, about how we distinguish between the chancer doing an illegal turn deliberately and a visitor on unfamiliar territory just getting confused. My own feeling is that, taking Cardiff as an example, it would be good if each vehicle had an allowance of non-speeding minor mistakes of say one per year, which generated a warning but no fine. That would not benefit local chancers wanting to offend daily.