RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

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mjr
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2019, 2:30pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:
PH wrote: :roll: right back at you. Since when did the definition on pedestrian include cyclists? You may be right about the sign’s legality, but most people will accept that cycling in a pedestrian zone isn’t permitted.

Pretty much every pedestrian zone I've seen outside the UK permits it, but of course you have to give way to walkers (so no frantic bells and often during the day you'll be at walking pace!). Since 1987, it's been UK policy it should usually be here too, but we're mostly such a backwards bike-hating nation, it's only a few great cities like Norwich, Cambridge and Bristol that have implemented that.

I can't figure out what point you're making. He wasn't riding outside the UK and as you say it's pretty much the norm for pedestrian zones in the UK to exclude cyclists.

The points I am making:
1. the norm for over 30 years is for pedestrian zones in the UK to allow cycling, but only a few places have implemented it yet;
2. a round-the-world cyclist is probably familiar with pedestrian zones around the world allowing cycling because they generally do.

That isn't the case, certainly not my experience, I've had more close passes by bikes while a pedestrian than by motor vehicles while a cyclist - of course I know the risks are of a different magnitude, but the experience is no less unpleasant.

What? Narrowly missing a 10mph-differential similar-mass bump "is no less unpleasant" than feeling you were nearly pulverised by a many-ton metal vehicle with a 40-50mph differential? Wow.

Also, you must walk much more than me and/or cycle much less than me and/or drivers near you are much better-behaved and/or cyclists much worse for that to be your experience.

Even then there's an acceptance that they don't always mix, I don't think I've been in any city where there are no areas cycling isn't permitted, there's a few in Amsterdam though they're often ignored. It needs an attitude change and ignoring the signs then whinging about the fine isn't helpful. These are no more bike-hating places than cyclists are pedestrian-hating.

Oh sure, you're going to find a few small back alleys and densely-shopped zones with restrictions, especially in a capital city like Amsterdam, but even a few in places like Cambridge or Gent, but not the large zonal cycling bans that are still far too widespread in English shopping centres, covering many wide roads that motorists use with gay abandon if they've a blue badge or loading permit.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2019, 2:38pm

thelawnet wrote:https://www.bedfordindependent.co.uk/round-the-world-cyclist-josh-quigley-fined-in-bedford-town-centre/

In that, Bedford Council says "However, cycling in Bedford town centre is a major concern for local residents following collisions with cyclists and reports of injuries. The Council was asked by shoppers and businesses to introduce a restriction on cycling in the town centre to keep pedestrians safe."

Collideoscope shows ONE report of injury. Anyone like to www.WhatDoTheyKnow.com to Bedford Council to seek details of those supposed other reports? I bet it comes back "information not held" or similar.

I suspect it's true that the council was asked by a number of bike-bashers to ban cycling but that still doesn't mean they should give in to such antisocial behaviour.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby PH » 18 Feb 2019, 2:53pm

mjr wrote:The points I am making:
1. the norm for over 30 years is for pedestrian zones in the UK to allow cycling, but only a few places have implemented it yet;

We must have a different definition of norm - mine would be that if it hasn't been implemented then it's none implementation would be the norm.
What? Narrowly missing a 10mph-differential similar-mass bump "is no less unpleasant" than feeling you were nearly pulverised by a many-ton metal vehicle with a 40-50mph differential? Wow.

Yes, are you telling me what I should feel? Thanks. It isn't a matter of assessing the risks, it's the initial shock factor.
Also, you must walk much more than me and/or cycle much less than me and/or drivers near you are much better-behaved and/or cyclists much worse for that to be your experience.

Do you want to get competitive? Chances are I walk and cycle more than you.
covering many wide roads that motorists use with gay abandon if they've a blue badge or loading permit.

I'm sure many of those blue badge holders would be more than happy to have the ability to get out and walk and I'm disappointed that anyone would dismiss their disabilities as advantage.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2019, 4:12pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:The points I am making:
1. the norm for over 30 years is for pedestrian zones in the UK to allow cycling, but only a few places have implemented it yet;

We must have a different definition of norm - mine would be that if it hasn't been implemented then it's none implementation would be the norm.

Mine would be "a standard of achievement or behaviour that is required, desired, or designated as normal" - in this case, by the UK government through Local Transport Note 1/87 and several subsequent publications.

PH wrote:
What? Narrowly missing a 10mph-differential similar-mass bump "is no less unpleasant" than feeling you were nearly pulverised by a many-ton metal vehicle with a 40-50mph differential? Wow.

Yes, are you telling me what I should feel? Thanks. It isn't a matter of assessing the risks, it's the initial shock factor.

No, I'm just saying wow and that seems messed-up to me. Don't you think that's a bit messed-up?

PH wrote:
covering many wide roads that motorists use with gay abandon if they've a blue badge or loading permit.

I'm sure many of those blue badge holders would be more than happy to have the ability to get out and walk and I'm disappointed that anyone would dismiss their disabilities as advantage.

I'm not but why are they only allowed to drive there and not cycle if they are able? (The above-linked order only permits motor vehicles to enter with blue badges.) That seems really very warped and discouraging.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby PH » 18 Feb 2019, 5:15pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:The points I am making:
1. the norm for over 30 years is for pedestrian zones in the UK to allow cycling, but only a few places have implemented it yet;

We must have a different definition of norm - mine would be that if it hasn't been implemented then it's none implementation would be the norm.

Mine would be "a standard of achievement or behaviour that is required, desired, or designated as normal" - in this case, by the UK government through Local Transport Note 1/87 and several subsequent publications.

Mine would be:
the amount that is usual, or a situation or type of behaviour that is expected and considered to be typical
I think most people consider the "norm" to be the situation they typically find, I don't see how the same situation could be both unusual and normal.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2019, 5:31pm

PH wrote:I don't see how the same situation could be both unusual and normal.

If, as in England, that it's unusual for places to conform to the published norm.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby PH » 18 Feb 2019, 5:46pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:I don't see how the same situation could be both unusual and normal.

If, as in England, that it's unusual for places to conform to the published norm.

There is no answer to that, I think you have a unique definition. I'm off out, I think I'll ask everyone I see tonight if they think the "norm" is what's published or the common reality.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Feb 2019, 7:46pm

I'm in the dark about what offence was alleged on the ticket. :? In the OP it's stated that cycling is permitted under the pedestrianisation TRO so a public spaces protection order under s59 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, has been made to ban cycling. Later in the thread, the details of the TRO seem to include at least a partial cycling ban.

The details of the signs have been mentioned, in the context of the suggestion that the offence was failing to conform with a traffic sign. It's important to be clear both that "fail to conform" does not cover all traffic signs and that even when it does involve a relevant sign, it's normal only to prosecute for that offence if there's direct rather than only circumstantial evidence. ie Disobeying the sign itself needs to be witnessed, rather than the assumption being made that the alleged offender must have passed it to arrive where they were seen. A prosecution for contravening the TRO is the norm. So, while a TRO needs to be signed, the strict conformity of the signs is less crucial. Another point is that an NIP is necessary (with exceptions) for a "fail to conform" prosecution but not for breach of a TRO.

In a way, this is academic, but it's important to anybody who receives a ticket and is considering their options

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 18 Feb 2019, 9:49pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:If, as in England, that it's unusual for places to conform to the published norm.

There is no answer to that, I think you have a unique definition. I'm off out, I think I'll ask everyone I see tonight if they think the "norm" is what's published or the common reality.

It'll be no surprise if the people you know are as imprecise in their language as you. That's one way that meanings drift and why "normal" no longer always means conforming to a norm.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 18 Feb 2019, 10:14pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'm in the dark about what offence was alleged on the ticket. :?


If you look at the tweet there is a video with the ticket.

This shows that it is for a breach of the PSPO, contrary to s67 of the anti-social behaviour crime and police act

If you look at the Bedford website you can get more details:

https://www.bedford.gov.uk/environmenta ... y-notices/

Reference: 140140217
Issued at: 13-Feb-19 10:27
Offence: PSPO - Cycling
Amount: £ 75.00
Description: Cycling In The Town.
Area: Castle ward
Alleged offender details:
Name: Mr. Josh Quigley

It is Kingdom Environmental Protection that most likely issued the ticket.

It looks like their staff are on around £9/hour, but there maybe bonuses for nabbing as many people as possible.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39882434

It strikes me that the a private police force should not be working as anti-cyclist traffic cops. Otherwise why not have them similar people nabbing motorists at random for exceeding the speed limit or whatever. If the issue is ensuring strict compliance with the law then I'm sure if you licensed some rentacops to put out speeding patrols and demand £75 off motorists you could quickly raise the entire GDP of the United Kingdom in speeding fines.

The idea that cycling is inherently anti social is the biggest problem here IMO.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Feb 2019, 7:19am

thelawnet wrote: ... If you look at the tweet there is a video with the ticket.

This shows that it is for a breach of the PSPO, contrary to s67 of the anti-social behaviour crime and police act ...


I'm not on twitter.

... It strikes me that the a private police force should not be working as anti-cyclist traffic cops. Otherwise why not have them similar people nabbing motorists at random for exceeding the speed limit or whatever. If the issue is ensuring strict compliance with the law then I'm sure if you licensed some rentacops to put out speeding patrols and demand £75 off motorists you could quickly raise the entire GDP of the United Kingdom in speeding fines....


Local traffic authorities are already being given more powers to deal with more traffic offences besides yellow line parking and it provokes plenty of well-publicised whinges. Bus lanes and "bus gates" are included in that around here. I've posted that traffic authorities -who design and install traffic management schemes - should enforce them. Any implication that local authority enforcement is directed only at cyclists is incorrect.

...The idea that cycling is inherently anti social is the biggest problem here IMO.


I agree and I think it's a point I've made in perhaps different terms higher up. I think mjr has also made the point that using that sort of order to achieve this sort of ban is ultra vires (My words) The point would certainly made more strongly without discussing the finer detail of the TSRGD.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 19 Feb 2019, 11:14am

thirdcrank wrote:
thelawnet wrote: ... If you look at the tweet there is a video with the ticket.

This shows that it is for a breach of the PSPO, contrary to s67 of the anti-social behaviour crime and police act ...


I'm not on twitter.


Neither am I? You just need to click the link.

Local traffic authorities are already being given more powers to deal with more traffic offences besides yellow line parking and it provokes plenty of well-publicised whinges. Bus lanes and "bus gates" are included in that around here. I've posted that traffic authorities -who design and install traffic management schemes - should enforce them. Any implication that local authority enforcement is directed only at cyclists is incorrect.


That wasn't the point I was making.

Bus lane enforcement is explicitly delegated to local authorities by legislation, including the details of the permitted cameras that can be used.

This is specifically a question of the use of PSPOs to harass cyclists, as distinct from using PSPOs to harass motorists; large aspects of motorists' behaviour could also be deemed anti-social, however PSPOs are not I think being used to against motorists at all.

I am not clear whether the use of PSPOs for this purpose was envisaged by Parliament, however I suspect not.

Indeed if you look at the ASBC&P Act, it extends the powers of PCSOs to be able to issue FPNs, including for:

* cycling on a footway
* violating one-way systems, bus lanes, etc.
* failure of a cyclist to comply with traffic signs
* improper use of the horn
* opening a vehicle door on a road to endanger/injure

In terms of accountability, PCSOs are a good deal better than private rent-a-cops on bonuses for every ticket issued.

It seems councils prefer the use of PSPOs to enforce behaviour that is already illegal, because the rentacops are cost-free, or even a source of revenue; Peterborough council get £35 per ticket. https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/new ... -1-8759062

It is worth noting that some groups have successfully driven the rent-a-cops out:

https://www.liverpoolguild.org/articles ... r-officers - no more litter enforcement in student area

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby PH » 19 Feb 2019, 12:37pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:If, as in England, that it's unusual for places to conform to the published norm.

There is no answer to that, I think you have a unique definition. I'm off out, I think I'll ask everyone I see tonight if they think the "norm" is what's published or the common reality.

It'll be no surprise if the people you know are as imprecise in their language as you. That's one way that meanings drift and why "normal" no longer always means conforming to a norm.

It just gets sillier and sillier, here is what I said, I've seen nothing to make me consider my choice of words was in any way imprecise and I'm leaving it at that.
it's pretty much the norm for pedestrian zones in the UK to exclude cyclists.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 19 Feb 2019, 1:33pm

PH wrote:It just gets sillier and sillier,

I would say it's a shame that you think correct use of language is silly... but you probably mean something entirely different by "sillier" and maybe even "it"! :lol:

thelawnet wrote:This is specifically a question of the use of PSPOs to harass cyclists, as distinct from using PSPOs to harass motorists; large aspects of motorists' behaviour could also be deemed anti-social, however PSPOs are not I think being used to against motorists at all.

I linked a recently-proposed one in viewtopic.php?p=1326446#p1326446

But that's a bit different in that uses a PSPO duplicating Section 59 of the Police and Reform Act 2002, rather than one like Bedford's which is basically a stealth Traffic Regulation Order.
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 19 Feb 2019, 1:46pm

mjr wrote:
thelawnet wrote:This is specifically a question of the use of PSPOs to harass cyclists, as distinct from using PSPOs to harass motorists; large aspects of motorists' behaviour could also be deemed anti-social, however PSPOs are not I think being used to against motorists at all.

I linked a recently-proposed one in viewtopic.php?p=1326446#p1326446

But that's a bit different in that uses a PSPO duplicating Section 59 of the Police and Reform Act 2002, rather than one like Bedford's which is basically a stealth Traffic Regulation Order.


There is similar in K&C against idiots with their million pound cars showing off.

And as you say, it's aimed at what would be deemed anti-social behaviour, as opposed to regulating traffic - cycling through Bedford at 9:05am on a Sunday morning is not obviously more anti-social than doing the same at 08:55