RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

AMMoffat
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby AMMoffat » 21 Feb 2019, 8:32am

thelawnet wrote:
Peterborough: no cycling on Bridge Street at any time (very wide pedestrianised street); wider city core subject to 'dismount' order if riding 'furiously'



The cycling restriction on Bridge Street in Peterborough is between 9am and 6pm. It is unclear why only that part of the city centre has a cycling restriction thus making it impossible to remain cycling and cross the city centre whilst avoiding the traffic on the busy and congested surrounding roads. The Council has also removed the cycle racks from that part of Bridge Street (as part of recent "improvements") so it appears they don't want cyclists as shoppers either.

thirdcrank
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Feb 2019, 9:33am

As somebody has pointed out further up, the same people who ban cyclists from shopping streets as a dangerous menace are quick to shove them up onto narrow pedestrian facilities AKA footways when it suits their shabby schemes to maximise capacity for motor traffic.

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gaz
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby gaz » 21 Feb 2019, 9:53am

thirdcrank wrote:I'll suggest that ways should be explored of challenging the legality of making the order under which the FPN was issued.

Everybody's favourite cycling silk would agree with you.

Succesful legal challenge to a (non-cycling related) PSPO: http://www.2tg.co.uk/first-high-court-p ... o-invalid/

PSPO.png
The key bit, according to Martin Porter on twitter.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Feb 2019, 10:11am

Thanks for that gaz. As I mentioned above I'm not on twitter.

My own high regard for Martin Porter - often expressed on here - was diminished by his line in this blog item:

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2017 ... trial.html

(Although he changed the original headline - presumably after complaints from his learned friends - the description "mis-trial" remains in the internet url)

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mjr
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby mjr » 21 Feb 2019, 12:19pm

AMMoffat wrote:The cycling restriction on Bridge Street in Peterborough is between 9am and 6pm. It is unclear why only that part of the city centre has a cycling restriction thus making it impossible to remain cycling and cross the city centre whilst avoiding the traffic on the busy and congested surrounding roads. The Council has also removed the cycle racks from that part of Bridge Street (as part of recent "improvements") so it appears they don't want cyclists as shoppers either.

Is it because Bridge Street is part of National Cycle Route 12? You can bypass it without mixing it with motorists by using the Railway Cycleway but that involves at least one unsignposted U-turn IIRC while all the red [12] signs and conspicuous road markings are trying to send you through the cycling ban.
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thirdcrank
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Feb 2019, 5:57pm

There's an interesting contrast here:-
In December, the same man claimed on Facebook police had to drive at 155mph to "catch up" with him in a separate incident.
A police spokeswoman said on that occasion, officers spoke to the man for "driving anti-socially" and handed him a vehicle seizure warning. (My emphasis.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-47317581

thelawnet
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 27 Feb 2019, 2:05pm

Kingdom, who issued the fine in this case are apparently to be turfed out of the Wirral

https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1745 ... of-wirral/

Not, mind, for their anti-cycling measures, but because of their approach to their litter FPN contract.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Feb 2019, 4:16pm

thelawnet wrote:Kingdom, who issued the fine in this case are apparently to be turfed out of the Wirral

https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1745 ... of-wirral/

Not, mind, for their anti-cycling measures, but because of their approach to their litter FPN contract.


If a public authority has regulations that it wants to enforce and if it's within its remit to contract this out then that might be a very efficient and effective way of doing it. For a private company to undertake the contract, it does not imply that it is pro or anti anything. If the company does not perform properly, then action needs to be taken.

It seems to me that the issue highlighted here is that Bedford council has wrongly used anti-unsocial behaviour regulations to make an order which criminalises utility cycling. Dealing with that should IMO be the focus of any campaigning effort. The rest is IMO red herrings. Anyway, the interest on the wider forum seems to be zilch.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 27 Feb 2019, 5:49pm

thirdcrank wrote:
thelawnet wrote:Kingdom, who issued the fine in this case are apparently to be turfed out of the Wirral

https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1745 ... of-wirral/

Not, mind, for their anti-cycling measures, but because of their approach to their litter FPN contract.


If a public authority has regulations that it wants to enforce and if it's within its remit to contract this out then that might be a very efficient and effective way of doing it. For a private company to undertake the contract, it does not imply that it is pro or anti anything. If the company does not perform properly, then action needs to be taken.

It seems to me that the issue highlighted here is that Bedford council has wrongly used anti-unsocial behaviour regulations to make an order which criminalises utility cycling. Dealing with that should IMO be the focus of any campaigning effort. The rest is IMO red herrings. Anyway, the interest on the wider forum seems to be zilch.


Well I agree that asb laws should not be used for criminalising going shopping/to the pub by bike, however the private company is not a red herring at all.

I saw this in my local paper yesterday.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... p-15881844


Nice weather more people cycling, police go out to warn people they could be fined for cycling through red lights

No fines actually issued.

The difference is that a private company only really cares about profit whereas the police are concerned with enforcing whichever laws various stakeholders want them to enforce.

I think that contracting out these fines will tend to result in a similar outcome because there's clear incentive to issue as many fines as possible.

That's not withstanding the argument that the regulations themselves are ultra vires.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Feb 2019, 6:56pm

thelawnet wrote: ... Well I agree that asb laws should not be used for criminalising going shopping/to the pub by bike, however the private company is not a red herring at all.

I saw this in my local paper yesterday.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... p-15881844


Nice weather more people cycling, police go out to warn people they could be fined for cycling through red lights

No fines actually issued.

The difference is that a private company only really cares about profit whereas the police are concerned with enforcing whichever laws various stakeholders want them to enforce.

I think that contracting out these fines will tend to result in a similar outcome because there's clear incentive to issue as many fines as possible.

That's not withstanding the argument that the regulations themselves are ultra vires.


There are, of course all sorts of dangers in enforcers having a financial incentive in enforcement, Jonathon Wilde usually being quoted as an example. However, I'm also aware that police discretion can be a euphemism for idleness. Education and advice have a place, especially when the law is perhaps new or a bit obscure but if it's something that everybody knows about - and complying with traffic lights is surely in that category, then advice seems futile to me, not least because the word quickly gets around that you're only going to get a warning/ they can't touch you for it etc. With traffic lights in particular, I'd have as near as possible to 100% automatic camera enforcement.

There is a particular danger with fixed penalties of corruption in the form of an offer of a discount for cash.

Re obscure. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a well-known phrase or saying, but quite a bit of traffic law contains all sorts of twiddly bits.

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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby thelawnet » 19 Apr 2019, 11:11am

Today we learn that Peterborough, Bedford, Hillingdon and Waltham Forest - all using private mercenaries - are responsible for 60% of the PSPO fines in England & Wales.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47982434
1500 fines in Bedford.

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Cugel
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby Cugel » 19 Apr 2019, 12:02pm

thelawnet wrote:Today we learn that Peterborough, Bedford, Hillingdon and Waltham Forest - all using private mercenaries - are responsible for 60% of the PSPO fines in England & Wales.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47982434
1500 fines in Bedford.


The mercenary approach is the problem. As soon as anything is handed to "the private sector" aka "rabid capitalist hyenas" it ceases to be an enterprise of making something useful to all and becomes an enterprise of making money for one or two greedymen.

In this case there is incentive to make the fine-money for the "private sector" aka "highway robbers" rather than making good order for the community. Why doesn't the council directly employ the enforcers and give them the remit of stopping the anti-social behaviour, with the fines as nothing more than a virtual truncheon? (Shown, waved about and, if necessary, eventually applied).

Cugel

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Mick F
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby Mick F » 19 Apr 2019, 3:33pm

I'll be cycling into Bedford and through and around it in early May.
Staying at the Travel Lodge in Marson Moretaine and cycling in to meet up and for a good social ride with friends.

My route in/out is on real roads, plus on bus lanes, and plus the cycleway on the river bank. Keeping well away from shopping and pedestrian areas! :shock:
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: RTW cyclist fined £75 for cycling through Bedford town centre during prohibited hours

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 19 Apr 2019, 3:49pm

The fixed penalties are easy enough to dodge. An accredited person must be in their authorised uniform, including fluorescent, and have their name badge and authority card on display. None comply with all of this, some with none of it at all.

Without the full house they have no powers, not even to ask you to stop. If you do feel generous and stop then snap a photo on your phone, so when you decide to not pay the penalty and it gets to court you can demonstrate that it was unlawfully issued.
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