A red rag to the motoring lobby

kwackers
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby kwackers » 28 Mar 2019, 3:16pm

mjr wrote:Some people advocate not signalling major-to-minor left turns because they feel it encourages the following driver to overtake unsafely. (I disagree and would make it a shooting offence... :twisted: )

As a cyclist?

Definitely. I used to indicate left all the time and was rewarded by no end of poor overtakes by people seeing their last chance to get past rather than be stuck behind me on a side road.
Now I only indicate left if there's nobody behind me and there's someone waiting to pull out of the road.

tim-b
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby tim-b » 28 Mar 2019, 3:20pm

Hi
• false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm

Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances (see number 5 in this list)
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tim-b
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Mick F
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 3:28pm

Failing your spelling test would be a good one. :lol: :lol:
It's spelt Manoeuvre, not Maneuver.
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Mar 2019, 3:29pm

tim-b wrote:Hi
• false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm

Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances (see number 5 in this list)
Regards
tim-b


5: Incorrect Use of Signals On Driving Test: Not cancelling the indicators after exiting a junction (happens a lot at roundabouts) or giving misleading signals (for example signalling left and following the road ahead).


I don't think that that is what's being discussed.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby james01 » 28 Mar 2019, 3:42pm

mjr wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:The "indicating only when necessary" thing seems to be from police driver training techniques which were continued in the Institute of Advanced Motorists (whose examiners were all police driving trainers.)

It's one of the things that's easy to test so it became accepted as good driving.

IMO it demonstrates a complete ignorance of the potential error types and consequences:
• false negative error = don't indicate when it is necessary = cut someone up and possibly collide;
• false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm.

It's baffling how anyone can think it's good driving to adopt a process prioritising reducing false positives at the risk of more false negatives.


Agreed. Hence, in aviation, repetitive cockpit checking routines even if the pilot "knows" he's already checked something.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been inconvenienced and occasionally endangered by ( IAM or police-trained :wink: ) drivers failing to signal because they think there's nobody to see it - they don't realise that however expert you think you are there could be a pedestrian or cyclist out of your line of vision who really needs to know your turning intentions . So, for heavens sake always signal !

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Mick F
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 3:57pm

james01 wrote: So, for heavens sake always signal !
Disagree completely.

Look.
Eyes open wide.
In control.
Be ready to indicate if required.

There's a thread somewhere on here and on other fora regarding "auto high beam".
Goodness knows what it's for, but it's standard on some cars nowadays.
I'd prefer "auto dip beam" if there must be something automatic about it.

I'd actually prefer that drivers used their lights responsibly and deliberately, and not automatically. Likewise all controls.

Now we're having auto speed control and we already have auto lights and some auto high beams, why not auto indicators as well?
Mick F. Cornwall

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mjr
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby mjr » 28 Mar 2019, 5:32pm

Mick F wrote:I cannot object to your clinical logic.

BUT, it's not like that at all.
A good driver will always be in control. Everything he does is definite and deliberate and considered.

Even the best driver is not infallible. Indeed, assuming oneself to be infallible may be the worst mistake a driver could make!

kwackers wrote:
mjr wrote:Some people advocate not signalling major-to-minor left turns because they feel it encourages the following driver to overtake unsafely. (I disagree and would make it a shooting offence... :twisted: )

As a cyclist?

Definitely. I used to indicate left all the time and was rewarded by no end of poor overtakes by people seeing their last chance to get past rather than be stuck behind me on a side road.
Now I only indicate left if there's nobody behind me and there's someone waiting to pull out of the road.

If anyone wants to try overtaking me on a left turn, they're welcome to try, but they'll have to go a very long way round me and end up head-on with traffic coming the other way up the side road. I'd like to see that - it would be almost as funny as the driver on the coast road who tried to overtake a dozen cyclists into a blind left and ended up emergency-stopped nose-to-nose with another motorist! :twisted:

And people advocate not signalling as either cyclist or motorist.

tim-b wrote:Hi
• false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm

Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances (see number 5 in this list)

Others have pointed out that it's not number 5 on that list. I'm a pretty liberal signaller and I think I didn't have a minor mark in any test for it. However, I did fail one for going too slow in bendy residential roads - or "not making progress" as they call it. Ironically, that area now has 20mph zones all over it!

Mick F wrote:Now we're having auto speed control and we already have auto lights and some auto high beams, why not auto indicators as well?

They probably wouldn't be able to tell what you were about to do on the controls because signal comes before manoeuvre...
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mick F
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 6:39pm

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:Now we're having auto speed control and we already have auto lights and some auto high beams, why not auto indicators as well?

They probably wouldn't be able to tell what you were about to do on the controls because signal comes before manoeuvre...
Spelled it correctly! :D

As for automatic indicating, it wouldn't take much technology to include it into the satnav system.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby mjr » 28 Mar 2019, 7:07pm

Mick F wrote:Failing your spelling test would be a good one. :lol: :lol:
It's spelt Manoeuvre, not Maneuver.

USA spellcheckers/predictives have blessed us with that one.

Mick F wrote:As for automatic indicating, it wouldn't take much technology to include it into the satnav system.

Satnavs occasionally fluff between turns and sharp bends, so I don't think we can rely on that for indication - also, does anyone use satnav every trip?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mick F
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 7:12pm

How do driverless cars get on?
Do they auto indicate when there's no-one around?
They see everything, are aware of everything, and know everything.

Do they indicate when they know no-one is there?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby DaveReading » 28 Mar 2019, 9:05pm

Mick F wrote:What always amuses me, that if I'm cycling along an empty road and a car comes up from behind, indicates right to overtake, then indicates left to pull in after passing me.

It's fair enough indicating that you're about to pull out (whether or not there is anyone to see it), but there should rarely, if ever, be a need to signal that you're returning to the original lane.

No-one is the slightest bit interested in the indication. The driver was doing it without thinking.
What else does the driver do without thinking?
Perhaps he doesn't think?

Hmmm. I tend to indicate when I'm about to perform any manoeuvre that would affect other drivers, whether or not there are any about. If that makes me unthinking, so be it.

OTOH when I'm on the bike, I assume that drivers never think. :D

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby kwackers » 28 Mar 2019, 9:25pm

mjr wrote:If anyone wants to try overtaking me on a left turn, they're welcome to try, but they'll have to go a very long way round me and end up head-on with traffic coming the other way up the side road. I'd like to see that - it would be almost as funny as the driver on the coast road who tried to overtake a dozen cyclists into a blind left and ended up emergency-stopped nose-to-nose with another motorist! :twisted:

You think I drive in the kerb? Not a chance, I think I've only ever once seen another cyclist that rides as far out as me and when I want to turn I'm most definitely not near the kerb.

Nope, I think you're either lucky or I'm unlucky. I've had cars swing out to pass and then pull across forcing me to brake to avoid them - and worse, sometimes just as you think "dick", bugger me if another and sometimes even another follows them!

Mind you most of this seems to occur in Speke, a place highly rated by me for absolutely pss poor driving. In fact probably more than half the incidents I ever have exist on a two mile stretch of road that runs through it - not bad if you consider my commute is 20 miles, 50% of incidents for 10% of the road.
Some poor sap and his GF were both killed in that area on their bicycles just last week.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Mar 2019, 9:44pm

Perhaps the waffle about speed limiters is just a cunning ruse to help smuggle through the Europe-wide ban on seasonal clock changes, which will save endless fiddling with clocks twice a year, especially when they go back and the twice yearly exchanges about the benefits of this.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby tim-b » 29 Mar 2019, 6:10am

Hi
I don't think that that is what's being discussed

Indicating only when necessary was being discussed, and an opinion "false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm" was expressed. That opinion needed qualification to be accurate, "Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances"
Top 10 Faults That Fail Learners On Driving Test!
5. Incorrect Use of Signals On Driving Test, followed by a couple of examples that are admittedly less relevant to this thread. There are plenty of other examples where an unnecessary indicator would be either a serious or a dangerous driving fault, and demonstrate too low a standard of driving to pass a driving test
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tim-b
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby pwa » 29 Mar 2019, 8:05am

Mick F wrote:How do driverless cars get on?
Do they auto indicate when there's no-one around?
They see everything, are aware of everything, and know everything.

Do they indicate when they know no-one is there?


I live in countryside so I often drive down lanes with no other traffic around. But when I get to a crossroads and want to turn left or right I still indicate. Does anyone see? No. Would the world stop turning if I didn't? No. But I value the habit of indicating turns at crossroads, and I do want it to come automatically so that when I really do need to indicate I am in the habit and do it almost without thinking. I see so many drivers drifting around with no indication. Especially on busy roundabouts.

Excessive indication is a small problem. I can't think of the last time I saw it nearly cause an accident. It is a bit irritating when a driver indicates for every parked car they want to pass, but it doesn't feature high on my list of dangerous things. The worst failure is when a driver fails to cancel a left indicator and drives along with on, misleading others into thinking they are intending to turn off when they are not. Now that really can be dangerous.