A red rag to the motoring lobby

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Mick F
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 29 Mar 2019, 9:01am

What about coming out at a T junction from a side road and the only way to turn is left?
The sort of junction where there's a No Right Turn/Left Turn Only?
Do you indicate left?

Here for instance in Tavistock.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.54357 ... 312!8i6656
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 08.58.04.png
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 09.04.04.png


Note the bus not indicating, and I don't indicate there in a car or when cycling.
Some car drivers indicate left, but most don't.

Note also, that the bus has a brake light out! :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall

pwa
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby pwa » 29 Mar 2019, 9:05am

Mick F wrote:What about coming out at a T junction from a side road and the only way to turn is left?
The sort of junction where there's a No Right Turn/Left Turn Only?
Do you indicate left?

Here for instance in Tavistock.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.54357 ... 312!8i6656
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 08.58.04.png

Note the bus not indicating, and I don't indicate there in a car or when cycling.
Some car drivers indicate left, but most don't.

Note also, that the bus has a brake light out! :wink:
What if there is a pedestrian waiting to cross on the road you are emerging onto, and they are not aware of the lane markings beneath your car? I'd give the signal anyway, because it just might help someone and it is not going to be misconstrued so won't do any harm. But it is a small point and I can see why you might not bother.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby mjr » 29 Mar 2019, 9:21am

tim-b wrote:Hi
I don't think that that is what's being discussed

Indicating only when necessary was being discussed, and an opinion "false positive error = do indicate when it is unnecessary = no harm" was expressed. That opinion needed qualification to be accurate, "Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances"
Top 10 Faults That Fail Learners On Driving Test!
5. Incorrect Use of Signals On Driving Test, followed by a couple of examples that are admittedly less relevant to this thread. There are plenty of other examples where an unnecessary indicator would be either a serious or a dangerous driving fault, and demonstrate too low a standard of driving to pass a driving test

Knowing when it's acceptable not to indicate is only a knowledge requirement, not a performance one, and it's only acceptable not required. From both the letter of the standards https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-st ... ment-4-1-1 and my practical experience as a liberal signaller passing the test without a signalling fault, I am fairly sure the above claim is an urban myth that perpetuates bad driving habits.

(Edited to fix speeling)
Last edited by mjr on 29 Mar 2019, 9:31am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby thirdcrank » 29 Mar 2019, 9:24am

It depends on what's considered the purpose of signalling. Is it to ensure that everybody who might need to know the driver's intentions is apprised of them, or to meet the standards of some hidebound driving examiner stuck in the days of string-backed driving gloves and double-declutching who has no other way of knowing whether or not the driver has considered the "necessity" of the signal?

We've had this discussion before, probably so long ago it pre-dated talk of driverless cars, it may have pre-dated synchromesh.

PS By hidebound driving examiner, I'm not referring to the DVLA test.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Mick F » 29 Mar 2019, 10:00am

Apologies for veering the thread away from the subject in hand. :oops:

My thoughts turned to that because of the "automatic-ness" that's slowly coming in. The speed "control" is only a part of it, and it will eventually culminate in autonomous driverless vehicles ........... which will probably indicate at every bend in the road. :wink:
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby thirdcrank » 29 Mar 2019, 11:01am

Here's a previous almost identical discussion from 2009. It mentions an even earlier one but there's no link.

viewtopic.php?p=241150#p241150

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby mjr » 29 Mar 2019, 11:42am

thirdcrank wrote:Here's a previous almost identical discussion from 2009. It mentions an even earlier one but there's no link.

viewtopic.php?p=241150#p241150

So another topic on which some have held irrational views for over a decade and are impervious to reason about ;)
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby fastpedaller » 29 Mar 2019, 2:20pm

pwa wrote:
Mick F wrote:How do driverless cars get on?
Do they auto indicate when there's no-one around?
They see everything, are aware of everything, and know everything.

Do they indicate when they know no-one is there?


I live in countryside so I often drive down lanes with no other traffic around. But when I get to a crossroads and want to turn left or right I still indicate. Does anyone see? No. Would the world stop turning if I didn't? No. But I value the habit of indicating turns at crossroads, and I do want it to come automatically so that when I really do need to indicate I am in the habit and do it almost without thinking. I see so many drivers drifting around with no indication. Especially on busy roundabouts.

Excessive indication is a small problem. I can't think of the last time I saw it nearly cause an accident. It is a bit irritating when a driver indicates for every parked car they want to pass, but it doesn't feature high on my list of dangerous things. The worst failure is when a driver fails to cancel a left indicator and drives along with on, misleading others into thinking they are intending to turn off when they are not. Now that really can be dangerous.


Here in Norfolk we often have to use telepathy where the driver in front is concerned :lol:

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby tim-b » 30 Mar 2019, 7:19am

Hi
[indicators]These are my last words on the subject:
Knowing when it's acceptable not to indicate is only a knowledge requirement, not a performance one, and it's only acceptable not required

It's a performance standard, i.e part of the practical driving test, "Drive safely and responsibly..."
From both the letter of the standards https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-st ... ment-4-1-1

As above "Role 4: Drive safely and responsibly in the traffic system..."
I think that you're mis-reading the document linked to, "Performance standards. You must be able to use indicators and arm signals to signal intentions correctly". To perform to the standard consistently you must have knowledge and understanding in the areas listed
and my practical experience as a liberal signaller passing the test without a signalling fault

Entirely possible; as I've made clear on a couple of occasions above, "Do indicate when it is unnecessary = fail your driving test for a serious/dangerous fault in some circumstances"
I am fairly sure the above claim is an urban myth that perpetuates bad driving habits.

Ask an Approved Driving Instructor, or better still get down to the DVSA training and development centre in Cardington; spend a few weeks there and complete the examiners' course

Regards
tim-b
PS I didn't take part in the 2009 thread
[/indicators]
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby mjr » 30 Mar 2019, 8:36am

tim-b wrote:Performance standards. You must be able to use indicators and arm signals to signal intentions correctly". To perform to the standard consistently you must have knowledge and understanding in the areas listed

Yes, use. There is no equivalent "not use" requirement.

I didn't post in the 2009 thread either.
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby brynpoeth » 31 Mar 2019, 8:54am

Best to almost always indicate when driving

Best to usually not indicate when cycling
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby kwackers » 31 Mar 2019, 10:27am

brynpoeth wrote:Best to usually not indicate when cycling

Apart from turning right, motorists need some indication from cyclists they can subsequently ignore.

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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby 661-Pete » 31 Mar 2019, 1:28pm

brynpoeth wrote:Best to almost always indicate when driving

Best to usually not indicate when cycling
I often don't indicate when turning left - especially if there is a vehicle behind me also signalling to turn left. Better hold them up for a second or two, than to be left-hooked. I also tend to take primary whilst negotiating the corner - if I can.
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 31 Mar 2019, 9:52pm

I'm astonished at the emergency override function just in case some twit speeds up while over taking. If that happens then one should abort the manoeuvre and pull back in, and not fling themselves head first ever faster and faster into danger.

In any case, if lorry drivers are owt to go by most motorists will simply drive on the stops anyway, making overtaking impossible. Ditto joining the motorway - they're restricted to 70, you're restricted to 70, so wheres the difficulty matching speed? The AA should stick to what they do best - leaving motorists stranded at the roadside for 8 hours at a time.
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Re: A red rag to the motoring lobby

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Apr 2019, 7:54am

One point about this thread is that the linked article's headline and text are inconsistent: the text makes it clear that the headline is inaccurate. In spite of that being highlighted in early posts, a some subsequent posts are clearly commenting on only the headline.

Insight into the ways of spin doctors and others skilled in media studies.