Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

birkhead
Posts: 121
Joined: 29 Apr 2007, 10:41pm

Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby birkhead » 10 May 2019, 6:41pm

I have just read the BBC news report on Welsh minister's support for making 20mph the default limit.
Could Cycling UK please launch a campaign to do this in Scotland, starting with an electronic letter writing campaign to MSPs

Mike Sales
Posts: 3345
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20moph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Mike Sales » 10 May 2019, 6:43pm

birkhead wrote:I have just read the BBC news report on Welsh minister's support for making 20mph the default limit.
Could Cycling UK please launch a campaign to do this in Scotland, starting with an electronic letter writing campaign to MSPs


And England, and what about Norn Iron.

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 4154
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: Why not a campaign for 20moph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Paulatic » 10 May 2019, 7:11pm

There are and has been campaigns in Scotland I’ve badgered my MSP's a long time ago. Typically the Tory response was abysmal.
The Bill September 2018 https://www.parliament.scot/parliamenta ... 09932.aspx

Campaigns https://www.livingstreets.org.uk/policy ... icy/20mph/
+ https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/why-were ... rban-areas
There will be more.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 499
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20moph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 10 May 2019, 7:24pm

Given that it has been talked about for several years already, presumably a Greens proposal, but with no significant progress at all the SNP don’t seem to be any more keen on this than the Torres. Mind you, the governing SNP have also been “committed” to increasing levels of cycling to 10% of all journeys since 2010 without having actually made any progress so far, although they have wasted a huge amount of money in making that lack of progress. Given all this I wouldn’t hold out any hope for anything to change.

LollyKat
Posts: 2886
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby LollyKat » 11 May 2019, 12:21pm

The Bill is still under discussion or whatever the the proper term is. Maybe the Welsh stance (they haven't actually said they WILL implement it) will encourage the Scots

User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1227
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 11 May 2019, 12:55pm

I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I'm probably the only person within a 25 mile radius who would stick to it, but there you go. Compulsory speed limiters will eventually sort that I suppose.
https://themediocrecyclist.home.blog
Self employed MIAS L5.B Instructor.
Warwickshire Lowland Rescue Bike lead.
IPMBA certified member.
Cyctech C2 hammer and crowbar bodger.
Lapsed CTC Ride Leader, amateur hour stuff from the fun old days.

ambodach
Posts: 827
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby ambodach » 11 May 2019, 4:07pm

Wanlock Dod what do you think they should do and what is the money wasted on?

Ron
Posts: 1185
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 9:07pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Ron » 11 May 2019, 4:36pm

birkhead wrote:I have just read the BBC news report on Welsh minister's support for making 20mph the default limit.
Could Cycling UK please launch a campaign to do this in Scotland, starting with an electronic letter writing campaign to MSPs

It's a bit early to consider starting another campaign in Scotland already, what has changed?

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 499
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 11 May 2019, 9:51pm

Arguably a bit off topic, but anyway...
what do you think they should do

Build high quality segregated routes along roads into towns and cities that are busy and congested, and make driving less convenient in places where people live and work etc. by adding modal filters to ensure that people walking and cycling have safe, direct, and convenient routes in built up areas, whereas those in vehicles might need to take a more round about route.

Building high quality routes along busy and congested roads into towns an cities would provide a link between those areas where cycling is less dangerous and unpleasant because traffic is lighter and slower but people don’t cycle between because of the speeds and volumes of traffic on the routes that link them (e.g. between a housing estate and a town centre). Putting the cycle routes along congested roads makes people cycling visible to people in cars, and makes it more likely that they will consider cycling to be a viable alternative to sitting in a queue of traffic in a car. Lots of people don’t cycle because they consider it to be too scary or dangerous so focusing on the sections that really are scary would actually enable people to make useful journeys between places where currently the car is the only real option. Making the routes segregated ensures much less conflict and means that those driving don’t need to worry about either overtaking safely, or cyclists filtering (both of which are clearly important issues, although probably only the former is relevant to safety motorists do seem to hate cyclists filtering) but maintains awareness of cyclists by motorists, which could have positive implications for safety if motorists are more likely to expect to see cyclists whilst they are driving.

If you actually want to have people make significant numbers of useful journeys by bike then lots of people who currently don’t consider cycling are going to need to be encouraged to see it as a convenient way of getting about for short journeys that many of them would currently use a car for. An important part of this is doing something about the fact that the only real mode of travel for most people for journeys of half a kilometre or more is by car, and when they make these journeys by car they pretty much always get the most convenient and safest (provided they wear their protective steel safety cage and airbags) route available, which makes it an obvious choice. Routes for walking and cycling on the other hand are tortuous, inconvenient, and sometimes arduous so that they can be kept away from the noisy, dangerous, and generally unpleasant traffic. This tends to make walking or cycling less convenient and pleasant and therefore a less obvious choice. Scotland has spent decades making driving more convenient and people are now overwhelmingly choosing to drive. Another factor which might make driving in built up areas a bit less convenient is more restricted parking, and pavement parking is a fine example of something that makes walking (and sometimes also cycling) more inconvenient, unpleasant, and possibly also dangerous for the convenience of people using their cars.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2434
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby The utility cyclist » 11 May 2019, 10:45pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I'm probably the only person within a 25 mile radius who would stick to it, but there you go. Compulsory speed limiters will eventually sort that I suppose.

Yet the plans for these in the EU won't come into new vehicles until 2025 and even then the motorist can over-ride it, that avoids the fact that the vast majority of motorvehicles won't have it fitted at all.

There could be thousands of jobs created and a hell of a lot of lives.money saved if the UK government said every single vehicle must have a limiter fitted over the next two years, that NSL was abolished and all roads reassessed, all B/C roads to be defaulted to 40mph, 20mph to be blanket speed limit in built up areas aside from major through roads. You'd also free up all the time/resources and the nonsense (due to advertising it) that is the mobile speed camera units as well as speed cameras which must cost a fortune to maintain.
Simple, quick and massively effective in every aspect. if the country is to go to electric motorvehicles then the lower speed is actually beneficial as 18-20mph is the most efficient from what I've read.

irc
Posts: 4537
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby irc » 12 May 2019, 5:51am

Wanlock Dod wrote: the only real mode of travel for most people for journeys of half a kilometre or more is by car, and when they make these journeys by car they pretty much always get the most convenient and safest (provided they wear their protective steel safety cage and airbags) route available, which makes it an obvious choice. Routes for walking and cycling on the other hand are tortuous, inconvenient, and sometimes arduous so that they can be kept away from the noisy, dangerous, and generally unpleasant traffic. .


I think that is an over simplification. I live in an estate which is around 1 mile from our pleasant pedestrianised town centre. There are direct footpaths to the town center with both roadside and traffic free alternatives. The number of people who choose to walk or cycle to the town center aside from non driving children is trivial. In fact due to limited parking at one side of town the tortuous route is to the parking at the far side making it a good bit further than the walking/cycling alternatives.

Why? Weather. No matter how nice the walking/cycling routes on a wet or very cold day most people will choose the car. A local study found 0.6% of trips by cycle and 12.5% by walking. I'd guess most of these are children.

Laziness. Spend 20-25 minutes each way, perhaps before or after a working day when it takes 5 minutes in the car?

Practicality. I'd guess on average we are not far short of two cars per house. The one car households more or less balanced by the three car households. When the car is sitting there the fixed costs like road tax, insurance, and depreciation have been paid. The marginal costs of petrol for a 3 mile return trip are minimal. It's easier carrying a few days shopping home in a car than on a bike or a rucsac. I'm a bike tourer and I choose to take my car to the supermarket. For families with young children a mile each way isn't a trivial distance. The chance of getting Joe Public to shop by bike when he has a car is zero.

Aside from recreational cyclists and a tiny hard core of commuters we are a motorised society with exceptions like London and Cambridge etc.

pwa
Posts: 10300
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby pwa » 12 May 2019, 7:01am

The 20mph thing in Wales is just at the furthest end of the pipeline at the moment, so seeing it on the ground will probably take a few years. But the good news is that it was being pushed by a Tory AM, who then found that he was pushing against an open door and the Labour Government were already in favour. It is to be the default for residential areas, which seems to me to be very sensible. Exceptions will be made for some major roads, presumably on a case by case basis. We will have to see how that pans out.

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 499
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 12 May 2019, 6:15pm

irc wrote:Why? Weather. No matter how nice the walking/cycling routes on a wet or very cold day most people will choose the car. A local study found 0.6% of trips by cycle and 12.5% by walking. I'd guess most of these are children.


Any suggestions as to why the weather stops Scottish people from cycling, but doesn’t stop the Dutch? Similarly, why does it prevent cycling but not walking? It seems to be more of a feeble excuse to justify a choice but probably isn’t the actual reason why people make the choices that the do.

Somewhere with facilities for driving and walking people drive or walk, but choose not to cycle because it rains? Walking is slow but cycling isn’t quick enough, despite being not that much slower than driving in many urban areas?

Air pollution and inactivity place a heavy burden on society, yet they have both only got worse over the past decade despite a commitment to increase levels of cycling to combat these problems to some extent.

Perhaps driving short distances is just a bit too convenient.

User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1227
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 12 May 2019, 6:41pm

The weather doesn't stop them cycling. It merely gives them a handy excuse not to do so. Only gale force winds or significant levels of snowfall stop me, and I'm a weak Southerner.
https://themediocrecyclist.home.blog
Self employed MIAS L5.B Instructor.
Warwickshire Lowland Rescue Bike lead.
IPMBA certified member.
Cyctech C2 hammer and crowbar bodger.
Lapsed CTC Ride Leader, amateur hour stuff from the fun old days.

LollyKat
Posts: 2886
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby LollyKat » 12 May 2019, 9:42pm

IME the most common reasons in Glasgow for those who claim they would like to cycle but don't are :
    1. too dangerous
    2. too wet
    3. too hilly

The Dutch grow up with the perception that a bike is the normal way of doing short journeys, because they have all been cycling on mainly segregated paths from childhood. Therefore they have practical bikes with lights, mudguards and panniers or baskets, and have suitable rainwear, and their lifelong experience of the sheer convenience of cycling outweighs the possibility of getting wet.

Climate - Amsterdam is 1109 mm (43.7 in) drier than Glasgow, with an average annual precipitation of 766 mm / 30.2 in compared to Glasgow's 1109 mm / 43.7 in) (Source ClimaTemps.com). I think the rain does put some people off - I admit that since retiring I am less inclined to go out in a downpour unless I really have to.

Hills - Glasgow's not that hilly but it is certainly not as flat as most of the Netherlands.

None of these three reasons really stands up to scrutiny, but it is all about perception, and a lot (most?) of people think they are valid reasons not to cycle. Not unique to Scotland, of course.