Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Mike Sales
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Mike Sales » 14 May 2019, 5:59pm

Mick F wrote:
LollyKat wrote:Climate - Amsterdam is 1109 mm (43.7 in) drier than Glasgow, with an average annual precipitation of 766 mm / 30.2 in compared to Glasgow's 1109 mm / 43.7 in) (Source ClimaTemps.com). I think the rain does put some people off - I admit that since retiring I am less inclined to go out in a downpour unless I really have to.

Hills - Glasgow's not that hilly but it is certainly not as flat as most of the Netherlands.

None of these three reasons really stands up to scrutiny, but it is all about perception, and a lot (most?) of people think they are valid reasons not to cycle. Not unique to Scotland, of course.

............... and not unique to most places in UK.

I've cycle commuted in Glasgow and in the West of Scotland.
I know about the damp and the (few) hills.
Try it down in Cornwall. We have damp and far more hills than Scotland, but I know full well that it puts most folk off cycling here. Glasgow has it easy but I know what you mean.


I live in Holland, Lincolnshire. It is drier than the Netherlands, and just as flat.
Cycling levels are as low as most of Britain. In my youth many more cycled. It seems that what deters cycling is not just climate and relief.
Is it too late to "Stop der Kindermoord"?

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Cugel
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Cugel » 14 May 2019, 9:58pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Cugel wrote:Fixing car and driver dangers would be far more encouraging (and far less expensive) to cycling than building lots of badly-designed tracks "from nowhere to nowhere else". Fixing car and driver problems would also solve a huge number of other socio-economic problems besides the population's disinclination to cycle.


That doesn’t mean that there is no point building high quality facilities, indeed the London experience shows that big changes are possible in a short period of time with even relatively limited amounts of good quality segregated infrastructure.


Another mode of segragating cars from bikes (and pedestrians) would be to ban the cars. I've walked probably hundreds of miles around London in my time and never failed to be puzzled at why people drive private cars there. Even if they're too lazy or in a hurry, the public transport is everywhere. If they were banned or severely restricted, who would suffer what inconvenience? Let them get a bus to the park & ride in Twickenham. The buses would get their toot sweet if the place wasn't clogged with cars. :-)

I'll say it again. We already have an excellent cycling infrastructure - the roads. Me and t'ladywife were out on some again today. Happily, the drivers in West Wales are a lot more civilised, considerate and friendly than in some other places, notably the cities. If drivers in cities can't help themselves in being nasty aggresive oiks endangering all and sundry then ban 'em!

But if they could be "re-educated" with a bit of heavy rozzering and beaking, that would do too. No need for cycling "infrastructure", especially if it's a means to eventually ban cyclists from the real infrastructure. If car pilots can drive nicely in West Wales as we cycle about, why not elsewhere? It's a cultural matter, not a physical one needing "cycling infrastructure".

Cugel

awavey
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby awavey » 15 May 2019, 12:29am

Wanlock Dod wrote:According to road.cc they won’t be backing the proposal any way because they have decided that it wouldn’t work. It seems very similar to the justification for not bothering with segregation, we have decided it wouldn’t work so we aren’t going to try. Rather ironically they claim
“We are now actively delivering some good quality infrastructure in Scotland.
which presumably refers to the massive motorway building projects they have undertaken in recent years.


well tbf I think what they are saying is if you set this limit, but then dont have the resource to enforce it properly backing it up, then it becomes ignored and undermined and you are no better off than you are now. Which I have sympathy with as a view, as a resident on a 20mph road that has to my knowledge never had the limit enforced, that limit makes precious little difference to the speeds people choose to travel down it because they know no-one is bothering to stop them

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 15 May 2019, 8:37am

Personally I would rather somebody was ignoring a 20 mph speed limit and doing 27 mph than ignoring a 30 mph speed limit and doing 32 mph. It might not seem like a big difference in speeds but the higher speed results in 40% more energy, so can do more damage. It would give me more time to cross the road when I am walking, and make the streets a bit quieter, but it would hardly have any effect on journey times if I used a car.

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Cugel
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Cugel » 15 May 2019, 9:08am

Wanlock Dod wrote:Personally I would rather somebody was ignoring a 20 mph speed limit and doing 27 mph than ignoring a 30 mph speed limit and doing 32 mph. It might not seem like a big difference in speeds but the higher speed results in 40% more energy, so can do more damage. It would give me more time to cross the road when I am walking, and make the streets a bit quieter, but it would hardly have any effect on journey times if I used a car.

The wavey is correct, I'm afraid. They put 20mph on all the streets of the large village in which I used to live. Those who customarily did 35-45mph continued to do so. They don't seem to notice speed restriction signs of any denomination. What they need is a some rozzering then a beaking. Or their cars confiscated. Do we allow axe murderers, actual or potential, to have their axe back after a tut and a month or two without? No.

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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 15 May 2019, 9:27am

Once again, Cugel confirms that my choice of him as Justice Minister was a good one.
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Patrickpioneer
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Patrickpioneer » 15 May 2019, 11:01am

Where I live in wales there are a few and only a few 20mph zones and not many drivers drive within the limit, most go faster and a lot faster when they want to pass me on the bike doing 18mph. When they do break the limit a sign with a 'grumpy face' lights up at them. I bet that makes them scared?

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Cugel
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Cugel » 15 May 2019, 12:29pm

Patrickpioneer wrote:Where I live in wales there are a few and only a few 20mph zones and not many drivers drive within the limit, most go faster and a lot faster when they want to pass me on the bike doing 18mph. When they do break the limit a sign with a 'grumpy face' lights up at them. I bet that makes them scared?


There used to be (perhaps there still are?) excellent speed cameras in many of the Welsh villages strung along the speeder roads. These were populated with working cameras and the fines were issued. I know this as two of my friends who are both unable to lift their foot from the accelerator pedal when it's appropriate to do so, were nicked.

One friend was doing us a favour - transporting a clutch of furniture from NW England to near Cardigan. The route passed through many, many Welsh villages with 30mph limits and often two speed cameras. He was following us in a Transit van (we were in a car) some 100 yards back. He managed to get three speeding ticket. We got none. He was unable to stop hisself from doing little speedy jaunts through this village instead of driving steadily at 28mph (my speed just ahead). He left the vilage the same distance behind as when we entered the village. No control of the vee-hicle, yer 'onour.

Another friend got nicked in the Cenarth 20mph section around the narow bridge (no pedestrian pavement over it). She was doing 34mph because "I was thinking about the house I was going to see". Some folk find it hard to concentrate on their driving. I often wonder why they don't employ their imagination to realise just what a horrible event could occur if they are inattentive and speeding at the wrong time and place. Running over someone's beloved cat would be bad enough. How about killing a child?

Happily West Wales traffic police also have vans that park here and there to catch the speeders - typically on the entry to, or exit from, a village or town. Despite the fact that the locals know the detector vans habitually park in these spots, many fines get issued. Cuh! Humans!! ....... Or is it the seductive design of the cars, all disguised as transport but configured as racing cars (at least in the adverts and longings of the drivers).

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ambodach
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby ambodach » 15 May 2019, 4:47pm

Cudgel things have probably changed but when I used to go to Wales on business about 20 years ago I thought the drivers were manic.
Where I now live is touted as an idillic rural retreat but has turned into a kind of theme park which attracts a lot of tourists. They bring their driving non manners with them and over the last couple of years cycling has got more hazardous on two wheels and I am reluctant to use my recumbent trike now unless very early morning. Being a small community local drivers are all known to me and would certainly get the sharp edge of my tongue if necessary but not found the need so far.

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Patrickpioneer
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Patrickpioneer » 16 May 2019, 5:41am

Cugel wrote:[

Another friend got nicked in the Cenarth 20mph section around the narow bridge (no pedestrian pavement over it). She was doing 34mph because "I was thinking about the house I was going to see". Some folk find it hard to concentrate on their driving. I often wonder why they don't employ their imagination to realise just what a horrible event could occur if they are inattentive and speeding at the wrong time and place. Running over someone's belovoed cat would be bad enough. How about killing a child?Cugel


My sister a few days ago took me and my dog to the vets, on the way I said to sis, its twenty along here, is it! on the way back i said its twenty along here past the school you need look at the signs on the side of the road. and her answer, yes that's what they said to me on the speed awareness course.
you just cant make it up can you :shock:

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Cugel
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Cugel » 16 May 2019, 9:21am

Patrickpioneer wrote:
Cugel wrote:[

Another friend got nicked in the Cenarth 20mph section around the narow bridge (no pedestrian pavement over it). She was doing 34mph because "I was thinking about the house I was going to see". Some folk find it hard to concentrate on their driving. I often wonder why they don't employ their imagination to realise just what a horrible event could occur if they are inattentive and speeding at the wrong time and place. Running over someone's belovoed cat would be bad enough. How about killing a child?Cugel


My sister a few days ago took me and my dog to the vets, on the way I said to sis, its twenty along here, is it! on the way back i said its twenty along here past the school you need look at the signs on the side of the road. and her answer, yes that's what they said to me on the speed awareness course.
you just cant make it up can you :shock:


I do know also a small number of drivers who have had an "accident" and hit someone. Without exception they attempt to blame either their victim or "circumstancs over which I had no control". Even when given a salutary lesson, they fail to grasp it, then.

It doesn't help that the authorities are outrageously lenient with such folk. Everyone involved (sometimes even the victims!) have signed up to the notion of a road traffic accident. This notion is made-up-stuff in 99% of cases. There is a pair of clear and obvious causes of the "accidents": the nature of cars and the extremely poor skills and/or attitudes of those who drive them about.

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brynpoeth
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby brynpoeth » 18 May 2019, 7:45am

Speed kills
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby brynpoeth » 18 May 2019, 7:48am

Cugel wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote:Personally I would rather somebody was ignoring a 20 mph speed limit and doing 27 mph than ignoring a 30 mph speed limit and doing 32 mph. It might not seem like a big difference in speeds but the higher speed results in 40% more energy, so can do more damage. It would give me more time to cross the road when I am walking, and make the streets a bit quieter, but it would hardly have any effect on journey times if I used a car.

The wavey is correct, I'm afraid. They put 20mph on all the streets of the large village in which I used to live. Those who customarily did 35-45mph continued to do so. They don't seem to notice speed restriction signs of any denomination. What they need is a some rozzering then a beaking. Or their cars confiscated. Do we allow axe murderers, actual or potential, to have their axe back after a tut and a month or two without? No.

Cugel

In this situation the residents whose vehicles are parked on the road could arrange them to narrow the gaps to force the motrons to slow down
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Cugel
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby Cugel » 18 May 2019, 8:21am

brynpoeth wrote:
Cugel wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote:Personally I would rather somebody was ignoring a 20 mph speed limit and doing 27 mph than ignoring a 30 mph speed limit and doing 32 mph. It might not seem like a big difference in speeds but the higher speed results in 40% more energy, so can do more damage. It would give me more time to cross the road when I am walking, and make the streets a bit quieter, but it would hardly have any effect on journey times if I used a car.

The wavey is correct, I'm afraid. They put 20mph on all the streets of the large village in which I used to live. Those who customarily did 35-45mph continued to do so. They don't seem to notice speed restriction signs of any denomination. What they need is a some rozzering then a beaking. Or their cars confiscated. Do we allow axe murderers, actual or potential, to have their axe back after a tut and a month or two without? No.

Cugel

In this situation the residents whose vehicles are parked on the road could arrange them to narrow the gaps to force the motrons to slow down


Ha ha - that actually makes as lot of them speed up, to try and get past the parker before the oncoming car gets there.

Personally I would charge parking fees to all who park on the public carriageway, were I the council man responsible for such things.

Cugel

brynpoeth
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Re: Why not a campaign for 20mph speed limit in Scotland, like Wales?

Postby brynpoeth » 18 May 2019, 8:26am

Wot, a tax on not driving? They would drive around instead to avoid paying :? :wink:
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