Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

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Tinnishill
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Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Tinnishill » 15 May 2019, 11:57am

On this link, from about minute 37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0004ymn
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horizon
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby horizon » 15 May 2019, 12:24pm

I think we do need some research on drivers' feelings (not their attitudes or behaviours). There is something very sad going on here. It has little or nothing to do with cyclists (the whole cyclist thing is quite ridiculous) but it's got something to do with something else - I'm just not sure what. My best guess is that most of the complaints are about cyclists winning, particularly the red light thing.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 15 May 2019, 12:41pm

I don't think we need to do anything. We don't owe drivers a favour. They're an endangered species, and in our lifetimes they're going to be either priced off the roads, or else relegated to the bus because there aren't enough electric cars to go around.

Ignore them, and pretty soon in the grand scheme they will go away.
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horizon
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby horizon » 15 May 2019, 2:26pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I don't think we need to do anything. We don't owe drivers a favour. They're an endangered species, and in our lifetimes they're going to be either priced off the roads, or else relegated to the bus because there aren't enough electric cars to go around.

Ignore them, and pretty soon in the grand scheme they will go away.


I think you're right.
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby pjclinch » 15 May 2019, 3:13pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:...and pretty soon in the grand scheme they will go away.


Though at the smaller scale that may still take quite some time, at least a few years.

horizon wrote:I think we do need some research on drivers' feelings (not their attitudes or behaviours). There is something very sad going on here. It has little or nothing to do with cyclists (the whole cyclist thing is quite ridiculous) but it's got something to do with something else - I'm just not sure what. My best guess is that most of the complaints are about cyclists winning, particularly the red light thing.


The feeling is, I think, one of entitlement, and this has come about because for so many years policy and culture have grown to support us in driving everywhere. People with a feeling of entitlement do not have a good track record when it comes to tolerance of anything perceived to limit that. The perception is that you're getting between them and their rights.
So we have the bampot recently reported on Mumsnet who felt appalled that they had to make an effort not to kill and maim people, and so on.
A key issue of entitlement is it puts the owner higher up the chain than anyone else (as they are obviously less entitled).

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horizon
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby horizon » 15 May 2019, 3:32pm

pjclinch wrote:So we have the bampot recently reported on Mumsnet
Pete.


Phew! Followed that up - I must say it's nice to get back to the civilised discussion on here. :shock:
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Cugel » 15 May 2019, 4:16pm

pjclinch wrote:
Lance Dopestrong wrote:...and pretty soon in the grand scheme they will go away.


Though at the smaller scale that may still take quite some time, at least a few years.

horizon wrote:I think we do need some research on drivers' feelings (not their attitudes or behaviours). There is something very sad going on here. It has little or nothing to do with cyclists (the whole cyclist thing is quite ridiculous) but it's got something to do with something else - I'm just not sure what. My best guess is that most of the complaints are about cyclists winning, particularly the red light thing.


The feeling is, I think, one of entitlement, and this has come about because for so many years policy and culture have grown to support us in driving everywhere. People with a feeling of entitlement do not have a good track record when it comes to tolerance of anything perceived to limit that. The perception is that you're getting between them and their rights.
So we have the bampot recently reported on Mumsnet who felt appalled that they had to make an effort not to kill and maim people, and so on.
A key issue of entitlement is it puts the owner higher up the chain than anyone else (as they are obviously less entitled).

Pete.


I think you're correct to identify thi feeling of entitlement, defined as a sort of super-right with no associated duties. However, how is it that people who feel entitled as a matter of course - about themselves in general and virtually everything they want to do - don't get anywhere near as aggresive, sliding towards murderous, in other situations of human-meets-human besides that of car driving?

My own theory is that the nature of the car (as with the nature of any technological extension to human abilities and intents) has it's own effects. In the case of the car, it's design, marketing and traditions of use all amplify the drivers feelings of aggresive power, of competitive striving; of ....entitlement.

Cyclists sometimes get a bit over-competitive but not in the same way as drivers. In fact, I often suspect that the faux-racer MAMILish fellows are merely bringing their car-amplified entitlement feelings and behaviours to their cycling. And to various other of their behaviours.

Cugel

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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby landsurfer » 15 May 2019, 4:26pm

horizon wrote:
Lance Dopestrong wrote:I don't think we need to do anything. We don't owe drivers a favour. They're an endangered species, and in our lifetimes they're going to be either priced off the roads, or else relegated to the bus because there aren't enough electric cars to go around.

Ignore them, and pretty soon in the grand scheme they will go away.


I think you're right.


+2

Which is why the largest taxi company in the UK has been purchased by a car production company in the last few weeks.
The future is not electric cars for personal ownership but "taxi " type use of vehicles in the future.
How would anyone without a drive/off-road parking, charge a car ? Leads laying across the pavements ? .. Multi cables coming from every street lamp ?... won't happen.
With wood pellet power stations, with their higher carbon footprint than modern thermal coal power stations, producing energy for vehicles we are heading the wrong way in the personal travel sector.

Personal travel !!!!

... Here's a post i have just sent to another site ......

Royal Enfield Owners

"Todays trip, 206 miles..
Nothing adventurous, just work, but lovely weather and and the trip from Rotherham to the centre of Birmingham was enhanced by the huge traffic jam i was able to filter through at Derby, 15 mile tail back ...lol ... bulk carrier HGV on its side at Markeaton Roundabout, cargo of glass bottles all over the place ... driver unhurt.
Free parking ( M/Cycles only. ) in the centre of Birmingham at West Midlands Trains offices for the first meeting of the day then to the National Exhibition Centre for the Rail Engineering show (RAILEX), car parking £16, M/Cycle parking free !

Total cost £15.68 .... ( £85 - £100 in the company pick up truck ) thats got to be a business case for company motorbikes ... and a somewhat reduced carbon footprint ..... :cool: "

2 wheels good ??
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Mike Sales » 15 May 2019, 4:35pm

I agree with what has been said about entitlement, and I think there is another factor. Drivers base their decisions on what feels safe to them. And of course, with their protection from the consequences, their behaviour does not feel as safe to the vulnerable as the vulnerable might wish.

landsurfer
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby landsurfer » 15 May 2019, 4:51pm

Mike Sales wrote:I agree with what has been said about entitlement, and I think there is another factor. Drivers base their decisions on what feels safe to them. And of course, with their protection from the consequences, their behaviour does not feel as safe to the vulnerable as the vulnerable might wish.


Why do drivers use a hand held mobile phone (HHP) while driving .... "what feels safe" ... drivers risk assess the area in their mirrors before using HHP ..i first heard this risk assessment theory at a speeding seminar i was attending ( oops ) ... and it makes sense.
The problem is .........
Drivers make bad risk assessment decisions while driving ... which is why they kill people ...
And the risk assessments drivers make are not based on safety of others ... but on getting caught !!!

As i have said many times before ...
no hands free, no contactless dialling, no phone use while driving, ...
is the only way.
The Road Goes On Forever ...

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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 May 2019, 4:57pm

i have said many times before ... no hands free, no contactless dialling, no phone use while driving, ... is the only way.


Which should also apply to cyclists.

On a recent Hadrian's Wall Cycleway trip the biggest menace as far as I was concerned was walkers either in phones of listening to music. Car drivers were courteous almost universally when I was on road sections.
John

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Mike Sales
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Mike Sales » 15 May 2019, 5:03pm

landsurfer wrote:

The problem is .........
Drivers make bad risk assessment decisions while driving ... which is why they kill people ...
And the risk assessments drivers make are not based on safety of others ... but on getting caught !!!

As i have said many times before ...
no hands free, no contactless dialling, no phone use while driving, ...
is the only way.


Not a problem. Drivers make decisions on what feels safe (safe as regards what the police call RTAs, and safe as regards getting pinched), and get them wrong.
I agree that no phones whilst driving would be good, but it is not the only needful change.

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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby mjr » 15 May 2019, 5:58pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
i have said many times before ... no hands free, no contactless dialling, no phone use while driving, ... is the only way.


Which should also apply to cyclists.

No it shouldn't. Equating the danger to others posed by phoney drivers to that posed by phoney cyclists is a very bad risk assessment, indeed!

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reohn2
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby reohn2 » 15 May 2019, 6:55pm

Listened to the program in the link,pretty much what I thought,someone which was anticyclist and ignorant of cycling due not cycling and just wants cyclists off their road.
OTOH two cyclists both of whom also drive and ride motorcycles so know both sides of the story and plight of the cyclist.

The problem for cyclists is a twofold one,firstly some drivers are unaware of the effects their poor driving standards have on cyclists,secondly there is an active element of drivers who know very well what they're doing when they deliberately antagonise cyclists.
The result of either has a similar effect on cyclists,one of fear.
The difference between cyclists and motorists breaking the law is huge,whereas cyclists for the most part pose only damage to themselves,motorists pose danger to everyone outside their vehicle with little chance of danger to themselves.
Until cycling is taken seriously by government and the police as legitimate road user with the same if not more right to our roads not much will change. IMO.
EDIT;- that said there are some complete idiots riding bikes.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Radio panel discussion about road behaviour

Postby Wanlock Dod » 15 May 2019, 7:21pm

horizon wrote:...My best guess is that most of the complaints are about cyclists winning, particularly the red light thing.

I think this is pretty close to the mark, and add to that the steadily increasing levels of traffic making driving less convenient (less chance of overtaking a cyclist without waiting for oncoming traffic, longer queues at traffic lights). Accepting that the numbers of cars on the road are the problem means recognition that motorists are part of the problem. Cognitive dissonance makes transferring the blame to cyclists the best solution, even if things wouldn’t be any better without any cyclists on the road.