It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 28 Jul 2019, 2:30pm

Very very few (BCN New Main Line, Tame Valley, a few bits of the Aire & Calder, maybe some of the Calder & Hebble?).
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The utility cyclist
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby The utility cyclist » 28 Jul 2019, 3:00pm

mattsccm wrote:None of this is likely to be done properly because there is no money.
I can see the point of restrictions in some places. In the same way that cyclists feel that they are a vulnerable minority on the roads, pedestrians feel vulnerable when surrounded by cyclists. They are not really compatible. Of course people will tell me that it works in Holland. That may be so but it was started before the pressure of numbers existed. To expect the huge change needed to happen here and now is a touch optimistic. In same way that it is doubtful if the sudden invention of the car would be unlikely to be accepted in 2019.
I think that cyclists need to accept that for every desire for sympathetic treatment there is one from the pedestrian and they out number us some what and always will. If we expect motorists to give something up we cannot complain when we are asked to.
The other issue is that so many cyclists care not a toss. I don't. I won't go near a city on foot or in a car so what goes on for cyclists in very much a low priority to me.

You don't need much money to stop up roads to motorvehicles thus negating any redesign/building or separate paths, nor does it cost extra to segregate motorvehicles into a narrow strip of road on the other side (hopefully that doesn't go anywhere and is stop/start which is currently that which is applied to people on bikes).

Commuter cyclists in the UK IMO are generally not the same in Netherlands, meandering/indirect routes from outside of town that criss cross huge number of motor roads (as I've put up previously from the South East of Amsterdam) would be a massive no-no to UK commuter cyclists, the route that was recommended by a cycling site using the cycle routes to the SE of Amsterdam I would never use, not ever. In part this is why commuting in NL has stagnated for years. A significant % of Dutch cyclists state that things could be improved with regards to the cycle lanes and they are now so indoctrinated into the segregated cycle lane culture (and that being the ultimate/only choice) they cannot even see other better solutions and this is why 3/4 of people in NL don't get about by cycle (26% modal share right, and as I said this has stagnated), a huge 22% of people in one research paper of Dutch workers said they would never use a bike to cycle to work no matter what.

If we continue to go down the segregation of cyclists we have ZERO hope of increasing cycling in any meaningful way, simply being pushed off the roads onto a narrow strip does not invite people to want to cycle more, it makes it easier for motorists to get about and not have to deal with those unlawful cockroaches getting in the way, where is the disincentive to drive?

The statements by CUK and others to raise cycling by 25% or whatever it is, is paltry, it's feeble and ultra conservative. We should be aiming for 400-500% increase in cycling (that still only brings it to 10%). The only way we will get anywhere near that is to stop up roads to motorists and give vast swathes of it over to people on bikes, this means happier pedestrians, safer for everyone and more incentive to cycle places, especially in built up areas.
This is cheap and simple and requires no more road or path laying. forcing people out of motors is the only solution as this is precisely what has been done to people on bikes, to give up cycling because it's unsafe, roads being inaccessible to most people (except the 'brave') and other routes that are inconvenient and/or stop start.
Flip that around and we will see a change because motorists would no longer have access to where they want to go (into city/town centres for the most part) and to stop through roads using their type of conveyance. Segregation is a weak 'solution' to encouraging mass cycling in a country such as ours.

pwa
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby pwa » 28 Jul 2019, 3:35pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
mattsccm wrote:None of this is likely to be done properly because there is no money.
I can see the point of restrictions in some places. In the same way that cyclists feel that they are a vulnerable minority on the roads, pedestrians feel vulnerable when surrounded by cyclists. They are not really compatible. Of course people will tell me that it works in Holland. That may be so but it was started before the pressure of numbers existed. To expect the huge change needed to happen here and now is a touch optimistic. In same way that it is doubtful if the sudden invention of the car would be unlikely to be accepted in 2019.
I think that cyclists need to accept that for every desire for sympathetic treatment there is one from the pedestrian and they out number us some what and always will. If we expect motorists to give something up we cannot complain when we are asked to.
The other issue is that so many cyclists care not a toss. I don't. I won't go near a city on foot or in a car so what goes on for cyclists in very much a low priority to me.

You don't need much money to stop up roads to motorvehicles thus negating any redesign/building or separate paths, nor does it cost extra to segregate motorvehicles into a narrow strip of road on the other side (hopefully that doesn't go anywhere and is stop/start which is currently that which is applied to people on bikes).

Commuter cyclists in the UK IMO are generally not the same in Netherlands, meandering/indirect routes from outside of town that criss cross huge number of motor roads (as I've put up previously from the South East of Amsterdam) would be a massive no-no to UK commuter cyclists, the route that was recommended by a cycling site using the cycle routes to the SE of Amsterdam I would never use, not ever. In part this is why commuting in NL has stagnated for years. A significant % of Dutch cyclists state that things could be improved with regards to the cycle lanes and they are now so indoctrinated into the segregated cycle lane culture (and that being the ultimate/only choice) they cannot even see other better solutions and this is why 3/4 of people in NL don't get about by cycle (26% modal share right, and as I said this has stagnated), a huge 22% of people in one research paper of Dutch workers said they would never use a bike to cycle to work no matter what.

If we continue to go down the segregation of cyclists we have ZERO hope of increasing cycling in any meaningful way, simply being pushed off the roads onto a narrow strip does not invite people to want to cycle more, it makes it easier for motorists to get about and not have to deal with those unlawful cockroaches getting in the way, where is the disincentive to drive?

The statements by CUK and others to raise cycling by 25% or whatever it is, is paltry, it's feeble and ultra conservative. We should be aiming for 400-500% increase in cycling (that still only brings it to 10%). The only way we will get anywhere near that is to stop up roads to motorists and give vast swathes of it over to people on bikes, this means happier pedestrians, safer for everyone and more incentive to cycle places, especially in built up areas.
This is cheap and simple and requires no more road or path laying. forcing people out of motors is the only solution as this is precisely what has been done to people on bikes, to give up cycling because it's unsafe, roads being inaccessible to most people (except the 'brave') and other routes that are inconvenient and/or stop start.
Flip that around and we will see a change because motorists would no longer have access to where they want to go (into city/town centres for the most part) and to stop through roads using their type of conveyance. Segregation is a weak 'solution' to encouraging mass cycling in a country such as ours.

Your plan is radical. I am sure you would agree with that. Forcing people out of cars by taking away the roads they can use. I can see the pure logic of that. But how do you expect to do that in a democracy? Could you convince the people in your own street? You are going to have to get people to vote for it at some point, or it won't happen. If you don't expect to be able to get people to vote for it there wouldn't be much point in proposing it.

pete75
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby pete75 » 28 Jul 2019, 5:13pm

skyhawk wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
gaz wrote:I'd advise you to fact check that part of your statement.

Quite!



You know very well I am talking roads since cars were introduced, a and b and motorways don't split hairs


The vast majority of the road network was built before cars were invented including most A and B roads.

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Cugel
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Cugel » 28 Jul 2019, 6:54pm

pwa wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
mattsccm wrote:None of this is likely to be done properly because there is no money.
I can see the point of restrictions in some places. In the same way that cyclists feel that they are a vulnerable minority on the roads, pedestrians feel vulnerable when surrounded by cyclists. They are not really compatible. Of course people will tell me that it works in Holland. That may be so but it was started before the pressure of numbers existed. To expect the huge change needed to happen here and now is a touch optimistic. In same way that it is doubtful if the sudden invention of the car would be unlikely to be accepted in 2019.
I think that cyclists need to accept that for every desire for sympathetic treatment there is one from the pedestrian and they out number us some what and always will. If we expect motorists to give something up we cannot complain when we are asked to.
The other issue is that so many cyclists care not a toss. I don't. I won't go near a city on foot or in a car so what goes on for cyclists in very much a low priority to me.

You don't need much money to stop up roads to motorvehicles thus negating any redesign/building or separate paths, nor does it cost extra to segregate motorvehicles into a narrow strip of road on the other side (hopefully that doesn't go anywhere and is stop/start which is currently that which is applied to people on bikes).

Commuter cyclists in the UK IMO are generally not the same in Netherlands, meandering/indirect routes from outside of town that criss cross huge number of motor roads (as I've put up previously from the South East of Amsterdam) would be a massive no-no to UK commuter cyclists, the route that was recommended by a cycling site using the cycle routes to the SE of Amsterdam I would never use, not ever. In part this is why commuting in NL has stagnated for years. A significant % of Dutch cyclists state that things could be improved with regards to the cycle lanes and they are now so indoctrinated into the segregated cycle lane culture (and that being the ultimate/only choice) they cannot even see other better solutions and this is why 3/4 of people in NL don't get about by cycle (26% modal share right, and as I said this has stagnated), a huge 22% of people in one research paper of Dutch workers said they would never use a bike to cycle to work no matter what.

If we continue to go down the segregation of cyclists we have ZERO hope of increasing cycling in any meaningful way, simply being pushed off the roads onto a narrow strip does not invite people to want to cycle more, it makes it easier for motorists to get about and not have to deal with those unlawful cockroaches getting in the way, where is the disincentive to drive?

The statements by CUK and others to raise cycling by 25% or whatever it is, is paltry, it's feeble and ultra conservative. We should be aiming for 400-500% increase in cycling (that still only brings it to 10%). The only way we will get anywhere near that is to stop up roads to motorists and give vast swathes of it over to people on bikes, this means happier pedestrians, safer for everyone and more incentive to cycle places, especially in built up areas.
This is cheap and simple and requires no more road or path laying. forcing people out of motors is the only solution as this is precisely what has been done to people on bikes, to give up cycling because it's unsafe, roads being inaccessible to most people (except the 'brave') and other routes that are inconvenient and/or stop start.
Flip that around and we will see a change because motorists would no longer have access to where they want to go (into city/town centres for the most part) and to stop through roads using their type of conveyance. Segregation is a weak 'solution' to encouraging mass cycling in a country such as ours.

Your plan is radical. I am sure you would agree with that. Forcing people out of cars by taking away the roads they can use. I can see the pure logic of that. But how do you expect to do that in a democracy? Could you convince the people in your own street? You are going to have to get people to vote for it at some point, or it won't happen. If you don't expect to be able to get people to vote for it there wouldn't be much point in proposing it.


It might be difficult to persuade people to give up their cars - impossible. I'd say, as the car is a very useful technology and is integral to much of modern life.

But there's no need for cars to be got rid of altogether. They just need putting in their place, meaning that they should be redesigned and controlled to stop the harm they do. That means restricting speed & acceleration that is completely unnecessary to the basic function of a car; making them green-clean; policing their use to a degree that reduces the death and maiming to miniscule figures instead of the current epidemic levels.

All that's possible with existing legislation and just a little bit of new legislation .... but that legislation has to be applied in an uncompromising fashion that has the effect of seriously changing the aggressive, dangerous and selfish behaviours currently regarded as the normal way to drive.

We changed things in respect of slavery, hanging, persecuting gay folk, smoking, child abuse and wife beating (although the latter two still have a way to go). Why not with the lethal and highly damaging modes of car use?

Cugel

Mike Sales
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Jul 2019, 7:03pm

Cugel wrote:It might be difficult to persuade people to give up their cars - impossible. I'd say, as the car is a very useful technology and is integral to much of modern life.

But there's no need for cars to be got rid of altogether. They just need putting in their place, meaning that they should be redesigned and controlled to stop the harm they do. That means restricting speed & acceleration that is completely unnecessary to the basic function of a car; making them green-clean; policing their use to a degree that reduces the death and maiming to miniscule figures instead of the current epidemic levels.

All that's possible with existing legislation and just a little bit of new legislation .... but that legislation has to be applied in an uncompromising fashion that has the effect of seriously changing the aggressive, dangerous and selfish behaviours currently regarded as the normal way to drive.

We changed things in respect of slavery, hanging, persecuting gay folk, smoking, child abuse and wife beating (although the latter two still have a way to go). Why not with the lethal and highly damaging modes of car use?

Cugel


That is good sense.
It occurs to me that the case of smog is another scourge to health which we abolished without having to ban heating, but by using law, smokeless fuel zones, and technology. Of course we now have a sort of invisible smog.

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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby mjr » 28 Jul 2019, 7:21pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
mjr wrote:No. Widen the towpaths that can be widened as needed and police the bits that cannot. Blanket bans are unjust and either they're not policed and punish only the lawabiding (while the reckless ignore them), or they're policed and it takes resources away from policing real reckless towpath use.

The police can't/won't police the roads where the most damage is being done, so policing tow paths is firstly not going to happen in any meaningful way and whatever IS is wasteful and diverts away from where the real harm is being done and what causes people on bikes to take to tow paths in the first place.

Great, so basically we agree that far.

And yet you want to continue to have shared use in places where there simply isn't enough space,

Any time you tell someone else what they want, you are probably misunderstanding or misrepresenting their view!

I have no great love of shared use but I am a realist and I think there is almost no chance of us taking the more Germanic approach of banning people from walking on cycleways or carriageways, plus I don't think it's a critical problem, despite bleating from stirrers like the grauniad author. Just widen the routes that can be widened when demand needs it and most of the conflict would subside.
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2019, 7:28pm

Cugel wrote:......... Why not with the lethal and highly damaging modes of car use?

Cugel

Because almost everyone has one and most break the law in one?
It's a sad state of affairs but but true nevertheless :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Jul 2019, 7:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby mjr » 28 Jul 2019, 7:29pm

Cugel wrote:[
In short, spend not on useless white lines and cycle-ped paths but instead curtailing and policing the car (financed by the fines for misuse and the saving on less-damaged road infrastructure) rather than on spurious and inadequate cycling infrastructure that's just a sop and introduces more problems than it solves by being too narrow, not going anywhere much and mixing in pedestrians, dogs, children, pushchairs, horses et al

Why make it either/or? Spend on both cycle-ped roads and on curtailing and policing motorists. (OK to stop useless white line spend.)

Also, once motorists are curtailed, I think you'll find other roads mix in pedestrians, dogs, children, pushchairs, horses et al once again. We need to figure out how to make Brits share like most Europeans and stop being nasty to each other - stop some cyclists "skimming" walkers, sure, but stop some walkers spreading across the whole width and stop some dog owners letting their pets harass and attack others.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby pwa » 28 Jul 2019, 7:32pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Cugel wrote:It might be difficult to persuade people to give up their cars - impossible. I'd say, as the car is a very useful technology and is integral to much of modern life.

But there's no need for cars to be got rid of altogether. They just need putting in their place, meaning that they should be redesigned and controlled to stop the harm they do. That means restricting speed & acceleration that is completely unnecessary to the basic function of a car; making them green-clean; policing their use to a degree that reduces the death and maiming to miniscule figures instead of the current epidemic levels.

All that's possible with existing legislation and just a little bit of new legislation .... but that legislation has to be applied in an uncompromising fashion that has the effect of seriously changing the aggressive, dangerous and selfish behaviours currently regarded as the normal way to drive.

We changed things in respect of slavery, hanging, persecuting gay folk, smoking, child abuse and wife beating (although the latter two still have a way to go). Why not with the lethal and highly damaging modes of car use?

Cugel


That is good sense.
It occurs to me that the case of smog is another scourge to health which we abolished without having to ban heating, but by using law, smokeless fuel zones, and technology. Of course we now have a sort of invisible smog.

It does make sense but I suggest that if all the motor traffic on the roads of London were electric the roads would still be very busy and unpleasant for cycling, and there would still be plenty of cyclists and pedestrians using canal tow paths to avoid them. Too many electric cars are still too many cars, even if some of the pollution (not all) is gone.

brynpoeth
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Jul 2019, 7:35pm

People would soon be bleating if the roads were full of whining electric vehicles
The pollution is just moved elsewhere :?
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Mike Sales
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Jul 2019, 7:36pm

pwa wrote:It does make sense but I suggest that if all the motor traffic on the roads of London were electric the roads would still be very busy and unpleasant for cycling, and there would still be plenty of cyclists and pedestrians using canal tow paths to avoid them. Too many electric cars are still too many cars, even if some of the pollution (not all) is gone.


I quite agree, and with Bryn too.

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Cugel
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Cugel » 28 Jul 2019, 8:43pm

pwa wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Cugel wrote:It might be difficult to persuade people to give up their cars - impossible. I'd say, as the car is a very useful technology and is integral to much of modern life.

But there's no need for cars to be got rid of altogether. They just need putting in their place, meaning that they should be redesigned and controlled to stop the harm they do. That means restricting speed & acceleration that is completely unnecessary to the basic function of a car; making them green-clean; policing their use to a degree that reduces the death and maiming to miniscule figures instead of the current epidemic levels.

All that's possible with existing legislation and just a little bit of new legislation .... but that legislation has to be applied in an uncompromising fashion that has the effect of seriously changing the aggressive, dangerous and selfish behaviours currently regarded as the normal way to drive.

We changed things in respect of slavery, hanging, persecuting gay folk, smoking, child abuse and wife beating (although the latter two still have a way to go). Why not with the lethal and highly damaging modes of car use?

Cugel


That is good sense.
It occurs to me that the case of smog is another scourge to health which we abolished without having to ban heating, but by using law, smokeless fuel zones, and technology. Of course we now have a sort of invisible smog.

It does make sense but I suggest that if all the motor traffic on the roads of London were electric the roads would still be very busy and unpleasant for cycling, and there would still be plenty of cyclists and pedestrians using canal tow paths to avoid them. Too many electric cars are still too many cars, even if some of the pollution (not all) is gone.


One singular change, such as cars becoming electric rather than ICE, is insufficient to deal with the whole problem. But it is one part of a necessary change.

Personally I would ban private cars from cities like London, Manchester and other places where it's socially and economically possible to have a high-grade public transport network to serve everyone, as well as a road design that includes pedestrians and cyclists as equals to the buses, underground/rail and trams. Let city dwellers who want to use a car outside the city keep their car outside of the city, cycling or bussing to access it. That might solve a lot of the tin-litter problem of thoroughfares clogged up by pavement-parking cars, as well as the death, maiming and pollution issues. Access to vans/lorries only at designated times, with rigid controls on their speed and routes.

***
There are lots of details that need to be addressed to make a sea-change to private transport so that it isn't lethal. polluting and otherwise detrimental to human life and existence (not to mention to the rest of the biosphere). There are no real technical barriers, only cultural and political barriers.

Many would wail about the "loss of my freedom" if their car-jousting was disallowed. "Nanny!" would be the cry. A nanny is what our often infantile population of self-centred little skinbags needs! Yes.

Cugel

Mike Sales
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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Jul 2019, 8:51pm

Road danger could be thought of as a sort of smog, as pollution with the risk of impact with a ton of steel.
Often rather faster in its effects, but sometimes producing lifetime disability.

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Re: It’s time to ban bikes at peak times - tow paths

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Jul 2019, 8:58pm

We just need Cugel as TM, transport minister, clicking away in Abergorlech to nudge Londoners out of their vehicles
Of course many Londoners abstain already, just need some more nudges

That nice Mr Cameron had a nudge unit, how shall history remember him?
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