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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 4:20pm
by reohn2
I'll post the link to this short film again for those who haven't seen it.Whilst I agree it can't happen everywhere it's not been tried anywhere in the UK AFAIA:- https://vimeo.com/76207227

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 4:24pm
by Mick F
1. It's flat.
2. It's a city.
3. Try it here instead.

Like you said, it can't happen everywhere. :wink:

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 4:38pm
by gazza_d
Depends on the definition of experienced.
I've been riding for almost 35 years.
I much prefer segregated or shared paths.
They let me cycle relaxed and not wonder if I'm about to be mown down or side swiped every time I hear an engine behind.
Painted lanes that suggest people should cycle in gutter when not blocked by parked vehicles are the devil's own work though.
The solution is paths and cyclewsys beside busier roads. Minor roads should have the limits dropped and access restrictions.

Over the last 10-15 years increasing use of satnavs have turned many minor roads into rat runs for idiot drivers.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 4:52pm
by reohn2
Mick F wrote:1. It's flat.
2. It's a city.
3. Try it here instead.

Like you said, it can't happen everywhere. :wink:

I also said it's not been tried anywhere in the Uk :wink:

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 5:48pm
by pwa
gazza_d wrote:Depends on the definition of experienced.
I've been riding for almost 35 years.
I much prefer segregated or shared paths.
They let me cycle relaxed and not wonder if I'm about to be mown down or side swiped every time I hear an engine behind.
Painted lanes that suggest people should cycle in gutter when not blocked by parked vehicles are the devil's own work though.
The solution is paths and cycleways beside busier roads. Minor roads should have the limits dropped and access restrictions.

Over the last 10-15 years increasing use of satnavs have turned many minor roads into rat runs for idiot drivers.

Cycle paths beside major roads, around here at least, tend to be littered with the gravel and other detritus thrown up from the adjacent road by vehicle tyres, so I stick to the road instead. And closer to my home the minor roads (B roads or lanes) are the only roads, so any vehicle on any errand will be on them because there is no alternative. The Tesco home delivery van, the bus, the lorry that collects milk from farms, they are all to be found on the lanes. But a lower limit than the default NSL is a good idea and long overdue.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 8:43pm
by TrevA
As a Dutchman whose name I cannot remember once said “Paint is not infrastructure!”.

I’ll use properly separated from traffic paths provided they are not crossed by side turnings, entrances and driveways and provided that there are virtually no pedestrians if it’s a shared facility. If you have to keep slowing for entrances and driveways, then you are better off on the road. Pedestrians are just too unaware when using shared facilities, so the 2 don’t mix.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 10:17pm
by mjr
The utility cyclist wrote:
Ron wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:No it doesn't and it doesn't help inexperienced/young/old either, it's a flawed 'solution' even at It s very best.
This is better for everyone but still not perfect.

Your message is unclear, the cyclists in the photo appear to be segregated.

My message is clear enough, you need to look again, It's clearly not segregated :? , no barrier or kerb divider, here's another view.

I'm getting sick of posting that that bridge in Copenhagen (Queen Louisa's Bridge IIRC) has a half-step kerb divider everywhere except across the crossroads near the camera. No matter how often you post the misdescription, it won't become true!

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 3 Aug 2019, 10:20pm
by mjr
flat tyre wrote:Yes I was wondering who "we" were. Segregated cycle ways outside major cities just won't happen and I don't think they are needed.

I must have imagined the one through my six-street village and its neighbours, then!

What we do need is reduced speed limits, which are enforced, proper traffic calming in urban areas and well signposted cycle routes.

We need all of it and the hopeful thing is no one bit detracts from the other efforts much if at all.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 4 Aug 2019, 8:36am
by gazza_d
mjr wrote:
flat tyre wrote:Yes I was wondering who "we" were. Segregated cycle ways outside major cities just won't happen and I don't think they are needed.

I must have imagined the one through my six-street village and its neighbours, then!


I must also imagine the cycleways that allow me to cycle the 18 miles to work, and previously most of the 16 miles to Durham. A lot of the time they're are better surfaced than the road, especially through Washington. As for needed, oh yea they are. the path alongside the A167 north of Durham sees plenty of action and I have seen electric bikes, electric unicycles on it as well as normal bikes. Some of the wide multi-use paths nr Washington are fairly new, and as a result you see people using it that I'd never see on an NSL limit road beforehand.

What we do need is reduced speed limits, which are enforced, proper traffic calming in urban areas and well signposted cycle routes.

We need all of it and the hopeful thing is no one bit detracts from the other efforts much if at all.[/quote]

We do need a lot more enforcement and filtering. The estate I live on was a horrific rat run by drivers trying to avoid a large busy roundabout with traffic lights.Turning one exit into bus only with a camera has made an immense difference. Filtering out through traffic is one of the best interventions.
Signing is important. Cycling routes are often "invisible" to the casual observer. A lot of LAs could learn from Manchester and have community sessions with locals to identify cycle routes, and then improve and sign them

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 4 Aug 2019, 12:03pm
by Ron
The utility cyclist wrote:My message is clear enough, you need to look again, It's clearly not segregated :? , no barrier or kerb divider, here's another view.

Your message was not clear, there appears to be segregation by road surface colouring, the bikes are on blue the cars on black tar, but as it appears to be a photo from another country I'm not sure about the relevance to the UK.
What message were you attempting to illustrate with this pic.?

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 4 Aug 2019, 5:48pm
by Wanlock Dod
The utility cyclist wrote:... It's clearly not segregated :? , no barrier or kerb divider...

By this definition there is hardly any segregated infrastructure in The Netherlands as kerbs and barriers seem relatively rare on their facilities, usually the surrounding grass is flush with the surface of the cycle path and almost flush with the surface of the adjacent road. It certainly makes accessing the cycle path a great deal easier than it usually is in Little Britain, and probably avoids quite a few broken cyclists every year when things go a bit wrong.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 4 Aug 2019, 5:53pm
by pwa
I have to admit that when I cycle through unfamiliar urban areas I rarely use off-road facilities because, unlike the roads, I tend not to know where they are and where they will take me.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 5 Aug 2019, 10:52am
by visionset
I thought it was accepted that segregated cycle facilities caused an increase in cycling uptake. Surely *we* all want that?
And although I didn't make it clear originally, I don't foresee, support or see any feasible way of extending this outside of built up areas, other than major new transport corridors.

Me personally, I prefer the road, it works better and I can only see it ever working better. And being purely selfish better enforcement and stiffer penalties would prob do the trick, though I'd add in a few little niceties like no light control left turn for cyclists and more bike boxes (with misuse penalties!).

So the question is really: Is the increase in cycling numbers from segregation likely to modify driver behaviour? Naturally some of this increase is going to spill onto roads whether through confidence or where the segregation stops outside the city. Or is the expectation that they must be used where possible going to have the opposite effect? I don't think we can know, but I very much fear the latter.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 5 Aug 2019, 4:34pm
by Mick F
mjr wrote:I must have imagined the one through my six-street village and its neighbours, then!
Six streets?????
That's a town.

Hamlet = a collection of dwellings.
Village = the same, but with a facility or two. Pub, church, shop for instance. Usually a single lane or a street or a crossroads.
Town = the same, but with more facilities. Parish church perhaps, bigger shops, market and a bus station perhaps. Roads and streets.

Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Posted: 5 Aug 2019, 5:03pm
by mjr
pwa wrote:I have to admit that when I cycle through unfamiliar urban areas I rarely use off-road facilities because, unlike the roads, I tend not to know where they are and where they will take me.

That's signs, though. I have the same problem with small roads in unfamiliar built-up areas. Of course, they don't want cars cutting through and sometimes the way is formally blocked but often there are little connecting tracks or no-entries that should except cycles, but I can rarely rely on them, so I end up stuck on the rubbishy motor-sewer roads. Would some cycle route signs really hurt?