Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

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mjr
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby mjr » 5 Aug 2019, 5:05pm

Mick F wrote:
mjr wrote:I must have imagined the one through my six-street village and its neighbours, then!
Six streets?????
That's a town.

Hamlet = a collection of dwellings.
Village = the same, but with a facility or two. Pub, church, shop for instance. Usually a single lane or a street or a crossroads.
Town = the same, but with more facilities. Parish church perhaps, bigger shops, market and a bus station perhaps. Roads and streets.

On your scale, it's bigger than a hamlet but fails to be a village because of the lack of facilities. No pub, no church and the only shops sell alcohol, antiques, cuddly toys and garden furniture! It does, however, have cycle facilities...
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Mick F
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby Mick F » 5 Aug 2019, 6:28pm

Excellent info, and it's something that gets my goat.

As I said, a hamlet is a collection of dwellings.
Just say you have a village or even a town, and all the facilities go. You are then reduced to a hamlet by definition.

Highest "town" in England is Alston I reckon. I was in Princetown on Dartmoor some time back and went into the visitor centre. They at Princetown are higher than Alston and they suggested that Princetown was a town.

One of the definitions of a town, is that they have a town council and a mayor. Princetown don't have them, but they have a couple of pubs and a couple of shops, making them only a village despite their name.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Aug 2019, 6:56pm

Princetown was a town, now it is a village
Alston has a market
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby Mick F » 5 Aug 2019, 8:03pm

Princetown was never a town and I doubt it will ever be.
Alston is a town at the moment. It has a market, and a town council to name but two things that make it a town.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby The utility cyclist » 5 Aug 2019, 9:12pm

mjr wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
Ron wrote:Your message is unclear, the cyclists in the photo appear to be segregated.

My message is clear enough, you need to look again, It's clearly not segregated :? , no barrier or kerb divider, here's another view.

I'm getting sick of posting that that bridge in Copenhagen (Queen Louisa's Bridge IIRC) has a half-step kerb divider everywhere except across the crossroads near the camera. No matter how often you post the misdescription, it won't become true!

The bit where there is no segregation is the bit I'm talking about, I don't care about something I haven't put an image of, stop twisting something that I haven't said or put an image up of, your incorrect analysis of what is in the image is what is the problem here, as it seems others on this discussion cannot grasp. THERE IS NO SEGREGATION IN THAT IMAGE!

THAT is better than segregation, as I said, it is NOT perfect, taking ALL of the road with zero access to anyone except people on bikes would be better.
If you think having 1.5m wide lanes that are circuitous (see my pic for amsterdam) and stop start/junction with motor roads as they are often in NL (hence the high number of deaths at these junctions) is the way forward then you like others are well off the mark. it will not work for mass cycling in the UK, not in 50 years, not in a 100 years! Boardman for all that I like about what he is trying to do is backing the wrong horse to increase cycling in the way that we need it to be, it is also massively more expensive and slow compared to the true solution.
50% increases that are touted are pathetic, however we've seen ZERO increase going down the segregated cycle lane route.
A 300% increase is just about a start for the next 5 years (so av modal share being 6%), in 20 years we need to be aiming for a 1000% increase, so 20% modal share. Segregated cycle infra will not ever bring significant changes in cycling numbers in this country, it's simply not enough and does not address the failures of segregation that we see in NL.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby mjr » 5 Aug 2019, 10:03pm

It's segregation by time across the junction, isn't it? Bikes get green when cars have red, then the opposite, then both those get red when walkers get green.

But anyway, the second picture shows back across the bridge, where there is kerb segregation, but it's obscured by number of cyclists and the camera angle.

And as I wrote before, protected cycleways are not enough, we need all of it... but equally, any idea that policing alone will bring mass cycling is fantastical nonsense.
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Aug 2019, 5:40am

Segregation should mean separation so the motrons are *unable* to drive on cycle lanes. If the separation is just a kerb the idiots can and do drive on cycle lanes and footways
There is a bridge near me that is too narrow, a waist-high concrete wall protects us from them
Remaining problems: cyclards going too fast, dangerous overtaking
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby pjclinch » 6 Aug 2019, 8:15am

flat tyre wrote:Segregated cycle ways outside major cities just won't happen and I don't think they are needed.


This is self-evidently wrong from the places it exists. Check out the far side of the hedge in the Streetview pic at https://goo.gl/maps/QDTTdKX1Sovagapx8 and that's the segregated cycle path to St. Andrews from Guardbridge (neither of which is a major city, or even minor city, and as you can see the space between them certainly isn't).

You'll see from the limited overtaking centreline on the road that it's not a great place for overtaking, and it's busy enough that even where you can see well ahead it's normal to see someone coming the other way. Not a nice road to cycle on, and I'm glad I don't have to any more.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby pjclinch » 6 Aug 2019, 8:53am

Some points on this...

The headline question has an answer of "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that", because segregation of itself is only part of the overall package of a cycle-centric culture like NL. Ride in NL for a while and you'll probably come across an instance where you'd sooner be on the road (say, if the fietspad you're on passes a school at the end of classes and it's chock full of children blethering to one another at a social speed when you're trying to get somewhere), but the overall help the whole system gives to you on your journey is far greater than the couple of minutes you get delayed.

On the whole, a setup like the Dutch one is not without its problems, but they'd be nice problems to have compared to the ones we have here. Cycle campaigning groups have considered the downsides, and they're generally quite careful to make sure cyclists aren't ghettoised on to rubbish. If you look at what experienced cyclists in NL have to "put up with" it's not surprising they're not generally wishing to have a system like ours.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby reohn2 » 6 Aug 2019, 9:17am

Some points:-
I think some cyclists like to 'mix it' with motors and get a kick out of it.
I think UK cycling isn't for the fainthearted.
I like to relax when I'm riding but over the past number of years that been increasingly difficult due to driver attitude.As a result there's some roads I avoid if at all possible,which badly need seperate infrastructure or good traffic policing.Both of which I can't see happening anytime soon to any great extent.
For the most part UK cycling infrastructure is crap.
Good cycling infrastructure needs good planning and not some back of beyond dead end track or painted that'll do cycle lane again it's sadly lacking.
The UK is totally wedded to the car and doesn't look like changing unless made to.
There's a social stigma attached to cycling ranging from surprise to downright anger toward cyclists,fueled by an anticycling crass and stupid media.
The vast majority of politicians whose lips are moving about cycling are liars.
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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby bovlomov » 6 Aug 2019, 9:38am

reohn2 wrote:I think some cyclists like to 'mix it' with motors and get a kick out of it.

That's me, I think.

I'm not a natural risk taker, so it probably isn't the danger that I like. It's more the feeling of being part of the traffic, and the need to be aware of the surroundings. At present that aligns with the practical necessity of getting swiftly from A to B. Mostly there's no other way than mixing it with motors.

I use segregated paths if they are the quickest way, but I'd miss the cars a bit if all my routes were segregated.

That's unlikely to happen in my lifetime.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby PH » 6 Aug 2019, 10:39am

I've just had a quick scan through yesterday evening 57km of urban riding, food delivering so no choice of destinations. I've used 14 separate bits of cycling infrastructure, they've been all sorts, painted lines, offroad tracks, shared use bridges, contraflow lanes... I haven't counted the cycle boxes or the cycleways through traffic calming structure. I used some more than once, to a total of 32 times, about a third of the distance. I do a lot of cycling and yes it helped me.
The window next to me overlooks NCN 6, the only road section (300m) on a 20 km off road route, the first 8km of which is as good a surface as you'll find anywhere, though once out of the city it become more variable. Cyclists of all types choose to use it, families, kids, commuters, roadies, MTBers, shoppers (It leads into an Aldi)... I don't know anyone who chooses not to use it.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 7 Aug 2019, 8:00pm

The utility cyclist wrote:... however we've seen ZERO increase going down the segregated cycle lane route...

Somebody is spouting utter nonsense. Englandshire has seen an appreciable reduction in levels of cycling in recent years (and there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that things are any less bad in other parts of the UK), but the one place that has invested in decent quality segregated infrastructure is London, and they seem to be the only place where there has been a considerable increase in levels of cycling.

Why Has Bicycle Use Fallen In England But Risen In London?

Given that London accounts for about 15% of the population of Englandshire the decline in the rest of the country must have been rather greater than the headline figure of about an 8% drop for the country as a whole would suggest.

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby Cugel » 7 Aug 2019, 10:06pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:... however we've seen ZERO increase going down the segregated cycle lane route...

Somebody is spouting utter nonsense. Englandshire has seen an appreciable reduction in levels of cycling in recent years (and there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that things are any less bad in other parts of the UK), but the one place that has invested in decent quality segregated infrastructure is London, and they seem to be the only place where there has been a considerable increase in levels of cycling.

Why Has Bicycle Use Fallen In England But Risen In London?

Given that London accounts for about 15% of the population of Englandshire the decline in the rest of the country must have been rather greater than the headline figure of about an 8% drop for the country as a whole would suggest.


There are many factors involved as contributory causes of increased cycling in London. One is the large cost of travel by other means. Another is that it's a lot faster than other modes of travel.

Does the provision of cycling infrastructure, such as it is, also contribute as a cause to the increase? Perhaps - but how do you detect the degree of causation contributed by all the many factors involved? My own view is that there are very few simple and singular cause-effect relationships of this kind in matters as complex as human behavioural habits.

There may, however, be causes that are somewhat ephemeral and, as such, liable to fade or even solidify. For example, does the publicity about the provision of cycling infrastructure in London act as a cause of people using it because "it's there"; or "it makes me feel safe" (even if they aren't); or "they spent my rates on this so I'm going to get value"; or ..... . Psychological causative factors of behaviour are often based on beliefs rather than on hard realities.

Finally .... London is a special case because it has the tradition, means, population, importance and other factors that mean large amounts of dosh will be spent on "London Things" that will never be spent elsewhere. No government is going to create a parallel way to roads for everywhere in Blighty just for a few cyclists. Not even for a lot of potential cyclists. They might spend a goodly dollop on more traffic policemen though.

Cugel

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Re: Does segregation help the experienced cyclist?

Postby mjr » 7 Aug 2019, 10:26pm

No, no government is going to spend a goodly dollop on more traffic policemen just for a few cyclists. Not even for a lot of cyclists. The motoring lobby and their press sympathisers would flay them alive!

It's also worth remembering that when London was blitzed by traffic policing after cycling deaths, as many cyclists were stopped as motorists, many for non- offences like cycling across toucan crossings or "not recommended" clothing, as well as minor offences arising from councils failing to implement government policies since the 1980s. I doubt it would increase cycling as much as some hope.
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