Cugel wrote:As I keep trying to say - the causes and effects are complex. It's not really possible to disentangle them all.
That's great, but later you fall back to
The roads are already there and just need the loonies removing.
which contradicts it, doesn't it?
I also think the later statement is not true. If we keep the current dangerously-bad-for-cycling road layouts, then no amount of policing will solve all the problems.
My overarching point is that improving the behaviour of motorised traffic by a significant degree of policing will, by it's very nature, make more drivers conform more often to the rules.
I ask again, is there any evidence for that?
Cycling infrastructure does nothing about that, really. This is especially so when the infrastructure is very expensive and doesn't pay for itself (as policing would, via fines).
Firstly, funding policing with fines is politically unacceptable and opposed every time it is suggested, usually blocking it. Even if you can convince motorists to support greater traffic policing (and that is a big if IMO), I think it is even less likely you will get them to agree to that.
Secondly, cycling infrastructure is a relatively cheap form of road-building, although there have been some disgraceful scandals of funding motoring infrastructure and twee heritage schemes from cycling project budgets.
Also, many current UK infrastructure inadequacies have little to do with money. In some cases, better infrastructure like reallocating one of three carriageway lanes to a two-way cycleway and erecting kerb islands with posts would be cheaper than the substandard stuff that was actually built. In others, things like approach angles at crossings don't cost any different.
Finally, no-one is saying that more cycling infrastructure will solve all problems. I think it is necessary but not sufficient.
And also when the huge majority of the cycling infrastructure so far supplied is inadequate or even dangerous in many ways. It seems a piecemeal and inadequate solution to increasing cycling.
Yes, it is piecemeal and not adequate alone. Few argue otherwise. Equally, increased traffic policing is piecemeal and even more inadequate.
At bottom I feel those pushing for cycling infrastructure are being a bit selfish - as well as consumerist in assuming an "at last, a new product" will solve everything. What about the remaining problems of all those car loons charging about?
I feel you are arguing against people that do not exist, some sort of infrastructure absolutists who say it will cure everything and we do not need any other measures, when most of us involved in the Space For Cycling campaigns have also been involved in other campaigns getting more policing, such as Road Justice, 20's Plenty, RDRF and Stop The Killing. This has been pointed out often enough that your continued use of Aunt Sally arguments and refusal to answer questions for evidence on the so-called "tried and tested" policing is pretty disingenuous.