Cycling UK Forum

Spotted this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RBWM/status/1159107535045087233

If you read the draft injunction, then a cyclist can not arrive at the cafe by bicycle, car or van.

The "clarification" says otherwise. They don't want "organised events" starting there, presumably because problems have arisen in the past. To pass judgement on this I would have to have had details of those alleged problems. My own home is very close to a sports pavilion which has hosted bike races and problems associated with that have been very slight. I am not aware of any complaints having been made. The cyclists arriving, mostly by car, early on Sunday mornings have been considerate, not slamming doors or yelling, and not blocking streets. Has the experience at this location been different?

I wasn't aware LAs had the power to limit modes of transport to a commercial enterprise.

Bmblbzzz wrote:I wasn't aware LAs had the power to limit modes of transport to a commercial enterprise.

They are not doing that. They are limiting what can go on at the business. As happens with other businesses. Failure to comply will impact on the business.

pwa wrote:

Bmblbzzz wrote:I wasn't aware LAs had the power to limit modes of transport to a commercial enterprise.

They are not doing that. They are limiting what can go on at the business. As happens with other businesses. Failure to comply will impact on the business.

A1

I could be totally wrong and my version of events are (probably) completely without any basis in accuracy whatsoever, so please don't take any notice of the following:

The cafe was originally a pub called the 'The Snooty Fox' , the pub closed down due to a lack of customers as many pubs have in recent times.

The owner of the pub lives right next to the now opened cafe that is in the same building that the pub was in.

The ex owner of the pub is very annoyed and jealous that the new cafe opened in the old pub premises is attracting a lot more customers than the old pub was and thinks sod this and decides to get on the blower to his mate in the Council and the rest is history.

Of course there was never any noise when it was a pub, every one was as quiet as church mice coming and going and there is no suggestion of nimbyism or any suggestion of complete and utter hypocrisy in this case, let alone Local Authority corruption.

Like I said, I just made all the above up................................................................... on the other hand?

GranvilleThomas wrote:I could be totally wrong and my version of events are (probably) completely without any basis in accuracy whatsoever, so please don't take any notice of the following:

The cafe was originally a pub called the 'The Snooty Fox' , the pub closed down due to a lack of customers as many pubs have in recent times.

The owner of the pub lives right next to the now opened cafe that is in the same building that the pub was in.

The ex owner of the pub is very annoyed and jealous that the new cafe opened in the old pub premises is attracting a lot more customers than the old pub was and thinks sod this and decides to get on the blower to his mate in the Council and the rest is history.

Of course there was never any noise when it was a pub, every one was as quiet as church mice coming and going and there is no suggestion of nimbyism or any suggestion of complete and utter hypocrisy in this case, let alone Local Authority corruption.

Like I said, I just made all the above up................................................................... on the other hand?

Do you actually know what the alleged problems have been? Have two hundred people been turning up together, with their cars, for a cycle event starting early on a Sunday morning, or something like that? It would be good to know what has been happening.

As I read it it prevents cycle groups from starting a ride at the cafe, ending the ride at the cafe or stopping off for a ‘coffer stop’ mid-ride. The aim being to stop high volumes of cyclists so, presumably a popular spot where a number of small groups becomes one bigger problem.

It isn't about limiting modes at all (in fact, they have drafted an injunction prohibiting congregating cyclists arriving by all means

); the problem is that the council is unwilling and/or too stupid to come up with something reasonable/logical such as 'groups of more than 12 cyclists should not arrange to stop at the cafe', or similar.

They appear to have banned ALL cycle groups from stopping there, not withstanding that some groups I have ridden with typically have about four people, and others 40; it is ridiculous to compare the former (one carload), to the latter.

What is the legal basis, can it be challenged? How might the cafe keeper or event organisers be punish? What if dozens of cyclists turn up singly?

Dick the butcher. 2 Henry VI, IV, ii

The Bard is always right.

It is worth reading the planning inspectors (rather poor) decision here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bMVWLmcxl1aSDHGtPuS8W9zkEeia_Xie/view?usp=sharing

The part the council is relying on is here:

Decision
1. It is directed that the enforcement notice be corrected by:
(i) In paragraph 1, following “shown edged red on the attached plan...”
addition of “...and comprising the ground floor part of the building and the
surrounding land and car park”.
(ii) In paragraph 2, deletion of “meeting place” and substitution of “cyclists’
meet”.

This extract (from the inspector's decision) gives some context



While the applicant (the owner of the cafe) in contesting the council's original enforcement noticed welcomed the Planning Inspector's decision he did not seem to understand that the inspector was essentially backing up the council with regard to organised rides meeting at the cafe, stopping at the cafe, or ending a ride at the cafe. She states in her decision:

65. In terms of the cyclists’ meet, I find this use to be harmful to the living
conditions of neighbouring residents and that the harm cannot be overcome by
the imposition of planning conditions.

It is a very poor decision by the planning inspector. (Please note I am not a planning expert, just a layperson who comments on planning in my neighbourhood.)

It seems the undoing of this business is down to the fact that he carried out a "possible" change of use of the premises without seeking planning permission.

Another applicant recently won planning permission to demolish a pub and build a cyclists cafe (and housing) in Hawridge, Buckinghamshire (also in the Chilterns) . But since he went through the whole process of planning permission (including public consultation) and categorically stating that it is to be a cyclists cafe then the owner is on pretty solid ground. https://twitter.com/ChilternVelo/status/1157278578939191296 and https://pa.chilternandsouthbucks.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=PIJSB4ESH5W00

It's just a shame it meant demolishing the original pub building. The cyclists cafe looks rather like a large shed.

Living in that area for many years I am aware that it is populated by many tiresome old farts who no doubt are very influential on the council. Disturb their peace with a gathering of lycra clad oiks at your peril... In the long run the cycling fratenernity will triumph.

Al

Part of the key issue here is the interpretation of what exact category of use is restricted (or equally what was *intended* to be restricted by) by the inspectors phrase “cyclists meet”

The councils enforcement notice clearly interprets it as all gatherings of cyclists before, during or after an organised ride

The inspector qualified it in her decision with the note:

A “cyclists’ meet” is distinguishable from use as a café where visiting cyclists might be at the premises for the primary purpose of taking refreshment.

My interpretation would be that in saying that she was clearly excluding any gathering or group who’s primary reason for stopping there was refreshment - which of course is pretty much exactly why a club run would actually stop there.