Reward for reporting idling cars.

Mark R
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Mark R » 13 Aug 2019, 8:11am

Unless you are seeking out worst case examples, then EVs are not massively heavier than their IC equivilants.

In fact where they are heavier it similar to to extra weight of a diesel compared to a petrol.

Very interesting that no-one was banging on about the extra weight of of a dieselmotor. It was all about the extra MPG and torque.

For anyone who is tempted to trot out some dodgy statistic like "some EVs have higher particle emissions than some IC vehicles"....consider that fact that for this to be true the IC engine's complex emission control systems would have to work effectively throughout the life of the vehicle. The diesel stench which still characterises our urban spaces suggests this is very far fetched.

So what if some of the latest IC cars finally conform to the EU emission limits...what matters is what the emissions are like through out its working life. We all know how dirty IC engines become once they have some wear and tear. Of course it is impossible for an EV to become more polluting with age because they don't rely on any of these complex emission control systems.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Oldjohnw » 13 Aug 2019, 8:17am

EVs do not emit particulates, which kill in the short term.
John

Cycling and recycling

landsurfer
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby landsurfer » 13 Aug 2019, 8:20am

Audax67 wrote:Don't like the idea. When I lived in Germany I became very conscious of what they called the "anzeigementalität", i.e. a state of mind that takes delight in denouncing petty wrongdoers. E.g. chum turned his ankle on a loose paving and stumbled a bit while walking to his car, police turned up at his flat half an hour later with a breath test because some good citizen had noted his number plate and called the police because he might just have been drunk.

Bleh.


This is my fear, there are those that will start deliberately targeting anyone that they can get into trouble using the "save the environment" cry.
There is a number of cyclists whose daily ride is filmed from all angles to prove their belief that all motorists are out to get them, and to bombard the police with yet another "he tried to kill me" video ... some of them post on here ..... :roll:
It's very much a 1984 scenario, waiting to be reported on by your neighbours for any perceived misdemeanour.
The Road Goes On Forever

landsurfer
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby landsurfer » 13 Aug 2019, 8:26am

Oldjohnw wrote:EVs do not emit particulates, which kill in the short term.


Of course they do ... tons of it .... Just not in your back yard ....
From the power generation system.
Do you really think a ship full of wood pellets sailing from the USA burning Bunker Fuel is not emitting particulates ?
The HGV vehicles delivering the pellets from the docks to the power station ....
and on and on ....
Just like transport policy in the UK .. no joined up thinking ..
The Road Goes On Forever

Mark R
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Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Mark R » 13 Aug 2019, 8:30am

Another way to look at it would be:

Public services are stretched thin due to cuts. Therefore it is somewhat impractical to expect the police and councils to police the problem of idling vehicles. People are being made sick by air pollution and idling vehicles are a significant source. Therefore paying the public 25% of every sucessful fine would be a cheap and effective way of dealing the problem.

ATM the problem is not being dealt with at all which is negligent.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Oldjohnw » 13 Aug 2019, 8:34am

landsurfer wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:EVs do not emit particulates, which kill in the short term.


Of course they do ... tons of it .... Just not in your back yard ....
From the power generation system.
Do you really think a ship full of wood pellets sailing from the USA burning Bunker Fuel is not emitting particulates ?
The HGV vehicles delivering the pellets from the docks to the power station ....
and on and on ....
Just like transport policy in the UK .. no joined up thinking ..


I think you know what I mean. Diesel cars on our congested streets in rush hour.

Using your computer to write about defending the environment, by the same token , pollutes. As does buying food, having a knee operation or tooth extraction.
John

Cycling and recycling

Samuel D
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Samuel D » 13 Aug 2019, 8:39am

landsurfer wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:EVs do not emit particulates, which kill in the short term.

Of course they do ... tons of it .... Just not in your back yard ....

In your back yard too, unfortunately.

It is utterly critical to get the weight of vehicles down, whatever their source of propulsion. Meanwhile, most people don’t even know how much their own car weighs, so unconcerned are they with these matters.

Electric vehicles remind me of the diesel push a couple of decades ago. They kick the many problems of massive private car use down the road a few years while introducing a host of new problems. No doubt we’ll wake up to this in a few years, but not before the next saviour technology heaves over the horizon to take its place.

pwa
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby pwa » 13 Aug 2019, 9:13am

Further evidence, as if it were really needed, of why an ambulance driver might feel they had to leave an engine running to maintain charge on electrical equipment within the vehicle:

https://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blog/b ... mbulances/

The objection to this should not be denying the need to charge (which seems to be more obvious to me than it is to some people) but to ask why the ambulance waiting areas don't have mains charging available so the engine can be switched off while charging continues. Switch off, plug in and go.

Anyone who has had to call an ambulance will be familiar with the idling engine. It is not a mistake or an oversight, it is a deliberate practice to allow the use of interior lights and other bits and bobs, keeping batteries charged up ready for the next patient.

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Cugel
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Cugel » 13 Aug 2019, 9:16am

Oldjohnw wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:EVs do not emit particulates, which kill in the short term.


Of course they do ... tons of it .... Just not in your back yard ....
From the power generation system.
Do you really think a ship full of wood pellets sailing from the USA burning Bunker Fuel is not emitting particulates ?
The HGV vehicles delivering the pellets from the docks to the power station ....
and on and on ....
Just like transport policy in the UK .. no joined up thinking ..


I think you know what I mean. Diesel cars on our congested streets in rush hour.

Using your computer to write about defending the environment, by the same token , pollutes. As does buying food, having a knee operation or tooth extraction.


But the surfer is right to mention the lack of joined-up thinking. Or global thinking.

We easily fall into the trap of thinking a bit of a fiddle at the edges of our profligate lifestyles will make things suddenly better. It won't and doesn't, of course. This isn't to say we shouldn't so-fiddle (even a drop into an ocean ups the level a teeny bit) but far more fundamental changes would have to be made for our current charge into some form of armageddon to be halted.

Personally I don't believe these fundamental changes will be made, as I don't believe that humans have the kind or degree of control we pretend we have over "things". It's the things that control us. Our memetic brain infestations addict us to damaging technologies, consumerist greed, damaging comforts and other nasty habits we can't give up.

On the other hand, I won't do a surfer and indulge myself in every known harmful human activity on the grounds that no one else will stop doing so either. But in reality I try to have a smaller carbon footprint et al out of a sense of personal economic practicality rather than because I think I'm doing any planet-saving. Ground source heating, solar panels and other fiddling about reduce the weekly bills. A hybrid car run 98% on lecky is quiet and unsmelly, as well as cheaper to run. Not flying saves ever so much dosh that would otherwise disappear down a hole of pointless gawping out of various windows at not much worth gawping at. Etcetera.

We're ALL going to continue trashing the planet at varying degrees and rates, though, no matter how we arrange our contributions to the process. Do you see any sign whatsoever of humanity as whole reducing CO2, plastic pollution, forest-stripping and a hundred and one other planet-rapes? Me neither. Plenty of talk; no action.

Cugel

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Pastychomper
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Pastychomper » 13 Aug 2019, 10:34am

Bmblbzzz wrote:
Pastychomper wrote:
That would be a major concern, and not necessarily the worst of it. Imagine a PoB or PoF suddenly 'feeling faint' in the middle of a small street, and standing there holding up traffic for a minute and five seconds while an accomplice films any cars (but not the cause) from a discrete location. A nice little earner for two miscreants, and even if the police aren't fooled it's still taken up some of their time and added to the total pollution.

You what? Firstly, idling rules apply to parked/waiting vehicles, not those stopped in traffic. Secondly, if they were extended to traffic stops (and a way found to deal with vehicles which don't automatically turn off their engines - maybe forcing the drivers to do so), then the important thing would be the fact of being stopped, not whether the hold up was caused by a red light or a medical emergency. Thirdly, your view of human nature is dubious.


What I'm trying to get at is, how would the fine-issuing authority tell from the video whether a car was stopped in traffic (where the "traffic" might be someone standing in the road) or waiting at the roadside? On a large road it might be obvious from the car's position, but on a small one there often isn't much distance between the gutter and the highway.

Fair enough, if there was clearly a queue in the video that would be a clue, but it would be easy enough for the cameraman to focus on one or two cars.

To your third point, you may well be right. I do think most humans have a generally nice nature, but there are enough exceptions for me to ride defensively and keep my house doors locked at night, and enough exceptions for me to be dubious of any proposal that might easily be twisted to reward unpleasant behaviour.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
--Ole Boot

Oldjohnw
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Oldjohnw » 13 Aug 2019, 10:59am

Cugel wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Of course they do ... tons of it .... Just not in your back yard ....
From the power generation system.
Do you really think a ship full of wood pellets sailing from the USA burning Bunker Fuel is not emitting particulates ?
The HGV vehicles delivering the pellets from the docks to the power station ....
and on and on ....
Just like transport policy in the UK .. no joined up thinking ..


I think you know what I mean. Diesel cars on our congested streets in rush hour.

Using your computer to write about defending the environment, by the same token , pollutes. As does buying food, having a knee operation or tooth extraction.


But the surfer is right to mention the lack of joined-up thinking. Or global thinking.

We easily fall into the trap of thinking a bit of a fiddle at the edges of our profligate lifestyles will make things suddenly better. It won't and doesn't, of course. This isn't to say we shouldn't so-fiddle (even a drop into an ocean ups the level a teeny bit) but far more fundamental changes would have to be made for our current charge into some form of armageddon to be halted.

Personally I don't believe these fundamental changes will be made, as I don't believe that humans have the kind or degree of control we pretend we have over "things". It's the things that control us. Our memetic brain infestations addict us to damaging technologies, consumerist greed, damaging comforts and other nasty habits we can't give up.

On the other hand, I won't do a surfer and indulge myself in every known harmful human activity on the grounds that no one else will stop doing so either. But in reality I try to have a smaller carbon footprint et al out of a sense of personal economic practicality rather than because I think I'm doing any planet-saving. Ground source heating, solar panels and other fiddling about reduce the weekly bills. A hybrid car run 98% on lecky is quiet and unsmelly, as well as cheaper to run. Not flying saves ever so much dosh that would otherwise disappear down a hole of pointless gawping out of various windows at not much worth gawping at. Etcetera.

We're ALL going to continue trashing the planet at varying degrees and rates, though, no matter how we arrange our contributions to the process. Do you see any sign whatsoever of humanity as whole reducing CO2, plastic pollution, forest-stripping and a hundred and one other planet-rapes? Me neither. Plenty of talk; no action.

Cugel


O I do agree. We need roof and branch rethinking. Motor cars, obviously. Including the proliferation of EVs. But general consumerism. Reducing or stopping flying. Smaller homes. Even extends to bikes, and not just ebikes. But we also need, as others have said, joined up thinking and proper infrastructure. Hospitals which one can attend using public transport. Local shops and schools.
John

Cycling and recycling

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Aug 2019, 11:01am

So as with any other traffic penalty you'd have the option of going to court where the normal "beyond all reasonable doubt" clause applies.

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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Aug 2019, 11:03am

All this talk of EVs is right in one sense: they are most definitely not a panacea, neither in terms of pollution nor safety nor the social problems. But it's also a distraction, the subject is reducing pollution from those cars we already have, not discussing replacements. As such it's fair to call it whataboutery.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Pete Owens » 13 Aug 2019, 11:28am

The utility cyclist wrote:it didn't take long for someone to incorrectly use the term whataboutery,

Perfectly correct useage.

The subject is curbing the toxic emissions produced by motors - a subject that you avoid addressing at all by attempting to conflate it with other issues. This is exactly the whataboutism tactic - and it can be deployed against any proposed solution to any environmental problem; pretty much every activity we undertake has some environmental consequences - and while these do need to be balanced we need to keep a sense of proportion.

Pumping out toxic gasses in close proximity to people is killing large numbers of us and so is a very serious problem that needs addressing. Whatever downsides EVs may have they do not poison us so are quite rightly included within the list of proposals - they are certainly a more serious contribution than tackling idling cars.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Postby Pete Owens » 13 Aug 2019, 3:02pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
Also introducing blanket 20mph speed limits as EVs work most efficiently at this speed, well 18-20mph apparently.

No, the point of the 20mph limit is to reduce the pollution from ICE tail pipes.
... with the added bonus of making the streets safer for us.

The fact that EVs are more efficient at 20mph ...

As I pointed out above as absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the proposal for an urban 20mph limit. The report is about reducing tail-pipe-emissions from conventional vehicles:
https://brightblue.org.uk/ambitious-policies-to-be-a-global-leader-on-clean-air/
Bright Blue wrote:
  • Replace the current 30mph default speed limit on all ‘restricted roads’ in England and Wales with a 20mph default speed limit. In urban areas, speed limits are automatically set on ‘restricted roads’ at 30mph, unless specified as not. Local authorities do have the power to lower speed limits below the national speed limit. Evidence shows that 20mph speed limits are beneficial in terms of lowered amounts of pollutants being emitted by vehicles, particularly for NOx and PM. Generally, arguments for the lowering of speed limits to 20mph are framed in terms of public safety, but there is now also a solid evidence base to be made for it lowering air pollution from vehicles. We recommend that the default national speed limit on all ‘restricted roads’ in England and Wales be lowered from 30mph to 20mph.

Incidentally, reducing speed limits on dual carriageways from 70 to 50 where they are close to urban areas is also an effective measure to improve air quality. This has been recently implemented on the Queesferry and Wrexham by-passes in North Wales.