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Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 11:13am
by pwa
Mick F wrote:
pwa wrote:I have always said that vehicle taxation should be shifted to the fuel, rather than VED and VAT. It ticks all the boxes for me.
Not for me it doesn't.

You'd be penalising drivers out in the countryside who have no choice but to use their cars.

I agree that in a Uptopian world, public transport would be everywhere for everybody, but until that comes, there are millions of folk who have no choice but to own and use a private car. Blame part of it on Dr Beeching.


But look at it this way Mick. pollution and congestion only happen when people actually use their cars. When they are parked they do no harm at all. It is the use, not the possession, that has to cost. Fuel tax does that. And it adds cost more or less directly in proportion to pollution. If you drive a big thirsty high performance diesel, you'd pay a lot per mile, with a much more efficient petrol hybrid like yours you'd pay much less per mile, and with an electric only car the tax could be zilch. I'd want it to be sold as "revenue neutral", so I would want the Treasury only to be clawing in what they lose by not charging VED. With a small car (paying VED on new ones these days) I'd have thought you might actually save a few quid.

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 11:53am
by Bmblbzzz
atlas_shrugged wrote:Snitching Britain eh?

That being the case of claiming a percentage of the snitch, I would like to claim a percentage of all the sleeping policemen being removed in the UK. These have led to a massive increase in pollution and damage to brakes and suspension. Especially in towns and cities.

I am rich, rich, rich... Oh wait we do not do common sense in this country!

In France we think we saw a system that recognised cars coming into a village and if they were too fast they received a red light somewhere in the centre of the village. This seems a much more sensible system as the sanction is imposed only on the speeding drivers. I guess it would need to be backed up by a massive penalty for driving through a red light.

I believe T42 has reported that these don't necessarily react to speed, just to the presence of a vehicle, including a cyclist.

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 11:59am
by Bmblbzzz
Use v possession, fuel duty v VED, is too simplistic an argument. Possession without use is also damaging; look at the crowded city streets, crowded with parked cars. Bear in mind also the environmental costs of production. Also, the big hit* of annual VED can be one thing that tips the mental balance between ownership and not. But to say higher fuel duties would be "penalising" rural dwellers is hyperbole; rather, those who use more (regardless of where they live) should fairly pay more.

*Big? When I started driving, VED was £100 a year for a car. For some cars, it's now less than that, and even the maximum, at £570, has barely kept up with inflation.

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 12:15pm
by Samuel D
Mick F wrote:You'd be penalising drivers out in the countryside who have no choice but to use their cars.

If true, is that inherently a problem? They choose to live in the countryside. A consequence of that choice is that they might have to spend a little more to get around. None of us has a right to unlimited personal mobility.

Certainly people in the countryside – or anywhere – do not have an inalienable right to run a car at such a low incremental cost that it doesn’t meaningfully restrain their use of it.

If I had my way, fuel would be much, much more expensive. That wouldn’t be a panacea, because wealth inequality in Western Europe is today more extreme than at any time since the 1920s, but it might finally wean large numbers of people off the enormous cars that do the most damage to roads, local air quality, global climate change, the safety of other road users, etc.

Bmblbzzz wrote:Use v possession, fuel duty v VED, is too simplistic an argument. Possession without use is also damaging; look at the crowded city streets, crowded with parked cars.

Right. So simply owning a car should have a non-trivial cost regardless of use. And parking it on city streets should have costs linked to vehicle footprint. As it is, parking a Smart car costs the same as an anti-social wankpanzer taking up two parking spaces and extending 2+ metres into the roadway (or, just as often, the footpath). Since parking fees are paid via licence plates and apps nowadays, the technical solutions already exist for the fee to be linked to vehicle size.

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 12:41pm
by Rob Archer
mjr wrote:
landsurfer wrote:Define "pointless idling" in a legal sense that will lead to a conviction ..... best of luck ... :)

Who needs a conviction? Just make it legal for people to cap the exhausts (which stops the engine, or at least makes it run like a dog and exposes exhaust leaks) and hand out free bungs and it'll deal with the worst offenders. After all, if someone can cap the exhaust unmolested, you were probably idling illegally, weren't you?

Where's the UK equivalent to http://www.ITurnItOff.com?
Easy with the right-sized potato

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my SM-A260F using Tapatalk

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 1:01pm
by mjr
atlas_shrugged wrote:In a 30 zone travelling at less than 30 I brake to say 10mph for a sleeping policeman and then accelerate increasing my emissions but hopefully preserving brakes and suspension.

Everyone should learn to decelerate without braking for such things, reducing your emissions and preserving brakes. It's not like speed humps jump out of the bushes, is it? They're usually signed well in advance, as well as directly visible, normally with a bizarre misuse of Benelux sharks-teeth give-way markings along their edges.

Maybe we should put up cameras at speed humps too and prioritise braking drivers for retesting?

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 1:21pm
by Bmblbzzz
Samuel D wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Use v possession, fuel duty v VED, is too simplistic an argument. Possession without use is also damaging; look at the crowded city streets, crowded with parked cars.

Right. So simply owning a car should have a non-trivial cost regardless of use. And parking it on city streets should have costs linked to vehicle footprint. As it is, parking a Smart car costs the same as an anti-social wankpanzer taking up two parking spaces and extending 2+ metres into the roadway (or, just as often, the footpath). Since parking fees are paid via licence plates and apps nowadays, the technical solutions already exist for the fee to be linked to vehicle size.

Interesting idea. I have a feeling goods vehicles used to be taxed in relation to surface area in France, or maybe still are? Yes, it would be possible and it would be beneficial, though I feel height should also be a factor - because height reduces visibility along and across the road, as well as feeling physically intimidating to smaller people including children. And the whole cubic (as it now would be) volume should be only one factor along with weight and emissions. Perhaps better to link it to residential parking permits rather than VED? As well as parking tickets generally.

Re: Reward for reporting idling cars.

Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 3:05pm
by Samuel D
More good ideas, Bmblbzzz.

Something, anything, should be done to prevent enormous SUVs and luxury sedans being the default choice of vehicle for people to commute to work in solo. These vehicles are so cheap to own that anyone can and does choose them nowadays. School teachers and electricians drive them. That state of affairs is profoundly harmful on so many levels.

I guess the main reason successive governments have ignored this elephant in the room is that they’re petrified of irking the car manufacturers, who already call the shots in whole cities and enjoy tax concessions that distort the market yet further against public transport. My frustration at the short-sightedness of government is nowhere greater than when it comes to the scourge of mass private car use. It’s such an obvious problem, and partial solutions are so obvious, and yet nothing serious ever gets done about it.