Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Mike Sales
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Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Aug 2019, 2:19pm

A coalition of climate campaigners and business groups have called for a ban on all petrol and diesel vehicles in Scottish cities as part of a multibillion-pound strategy to cut carbon emissions.
The climate emergency response group, a coalition of 19 environment groups, civic institutions, companies and business groups, said the Scottish government had to significantly speed up and strengthen its responses to the threats posed by global heating.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/26/ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-from-scottish-cities-says-coalition

pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 26 Aug 2019, 2:57pm

I'm slightly confused by this. Normally banning ICE engined cars from city centres is seen as a way of improving air quality in those locations. But is this intended, as it appears, as a way of reducing greenhouse gas emissions?

It has to be suggested by the Scottish Government to become a serious proposal.

Here is Wales we have the Welsh Government wrapping itself in a green flag while at the same time seeking to increase air traffic at Cardiff Airport. It is as if Monty Python is in charge.

reohn2
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby reohn2 » 26 Aug 2019, 3:28pm

It seems whilst Scotland seeks to decrease pollution for the good of all,in Wales they seem to be more jnterested in looking after the few :?
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pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 7:07am

I know it won't happen, but if a ban on internal combustion engine cars were implemented in Edinburgh and Glasgow within the next 12 months it would free up the streets of those cities for the comfortably off, who could afford the change to electric, and force the poor out of their cars. While I agree there would be environmental benefits I still feel uneasy about that.

Mike Sales
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Aug 2019, 7:38am

pwa wrote:I know it won't happen, but if a ban on internal combustion engine cars were implemented in Edinburgh and Glasgow within the next 12 months it would free up the streets of those cities for the comfortably off, who could afford the change to electric, and force the poor out of their cars. While I agree there would be environmental benefits I still feel uneasy about that.


A quick search found that 26% of British households do not have a car. Many others are single car households, so that not all members have free use of a car, for instance when one is at work.
I would guess that the poorest people are most likely not to have a car.
Does that help?

pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 7:46am

Mike Sales wrote:
pwa wrote:I know it won't happen, but if a ban on internal combustion engine cars were implemented in Edinburgh and Glasgow within the next 12 months it would free up the streets of those cities for the comfortably off, who could afford the change to electric, and force the poor out of their cars. While I agree there would be environmental benefits I still feel uneasy about that.


A quick search found that 26% of British households do not have a car. Many others are single car households, so that not all members have free use of a car, for instance when one is at work.
I would guess that the poorest people are most likely not to have a car.
Does that help?

A lot of those carless households are carless due to old age. Poorer families with commuters in them often have cheaper cars. Car purchases for them are a big thing. But those on good incomes often change their car for another new one every few years anyway. This change would disproportionately affect lower income families. And although it is not the intention we would see social cleansing of urban roads. The poor would be on bikes or buses and the well off would still have the choice of driving. That is the problem with changing behaviour through cost. It prices out the poor and frees the roads up for those who can afford the extra cost.

We need second hand electric cars to be affordable and widely available before this can be implemented in a socially just way.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Aug 2019, 8:02am

We probably need less cars, period. Stuffing the roads with EVs is not the solution. Better transport is fundamental to improvement.
John

Cycling and recycling

Mike Sales
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Aug 2019, 8:07am

pwa wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
pwa wrote:I know it won't happen, but if a ban on internal combustion engine cars were implemented in Edinburgh and Glasgow within the next 12 months it would free up the streets of those cities for the comfortably off, who could afford the change to electric, and force the poor out of their cars. While I agree there would be environmental benefits I still feel uneasy about that.


A quick search found that 26% of British households do not have a car. Many others are single car households, so that not all members have free use of a car, for instance when one is at work.
I would guess that the poorest people are most likely not to have a car.
Does that help?

A lot of those carless households are carless due to old age. Poorer families with commuters in them often have cheaper cars. Car purchases for them are a big thing. But those on good incomes often change their car for another new one every few years anyway. This change would disproportionately affect lower income families. And although it is not the intention we would see social cleansing of urban roads. The poor would be on bikes or buses and the well off would still have the choice of driving. That is the problem with changing behaviour through cost. It prices out the poor and frees the roads up for those who can afford the extra cost.

We need second hand electric cars to be affordable and widely available before this can be implemented in a socially just way.


Good morning Pete.
What we need is better and cheaper public transport.
Without it poorer people already have to spend a disproportionate share of income on a car.
Many of the carless are single parent families.
Those who cannot afford to live in the suburbs are disproportionately affected by air pollution, at home and as they walk along the stinking streets to school, or wait at the bus stop.
If we cannot choose to ban cars completely for political reasons it is difficult to see any other mechanism than price to improve urban air and cut CO2.
Do you have any suggestions which could improve the air breathed by the poorest?
More people on bikes and buses can only be a good thing. We have to make sure that these modes are not the second class choice.
As Oldjohnw says, electric cars are not a good answer.

pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 8:25am

There are no easy answers. Pricing people out of their cars carries a degree of social injustice because it has greater leverage on those with lower incomes, and that bothers me.

One thing that doesn't have that issue is encouraging options other than the car for city centre travel by providing cheap and pleasant alternatives. The Park and Ride thing works for me and I wish it were more widely available. If I drive into Cardiff I have to get quite close in before I get to a Park and Ride. A bigger facility on the edge of the urban area would get me and others out of our cars before we penetrate the built up area. And if the electric buses had a quick efficient passage from there to the centre it would be very popular. With the poor and the wealthy. The same for good cycle routes.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 Aug 2019, 8:28am

Surely bans aren't a good idea. The good idea is to make public transport cheaper and better if you can. Make bike use a realistic option for more people.

Why should it always need a stick. What is wrong with trying the carrot instead?

reohn2
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby reohn2 » 27 Aug 2019, 8:31am

pwa wrote:.......We need second hand electric cars to be affordable and widely available before this can be implemented in a socially just way.

I disagree,what would be needed is good quality affordable public transport alongside the ban and a restriction on all private vehicles with only certain exceptions such a blue badge users.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 Aug 2019, 8:34am

Just thinking more on this. There's whole lot of better solutions out there. What about trying to change work patterns? More distance working if possible. Always better to not make a journey in the first place.

Or staggered working hours. Instead of popular working hours try earlier or later starts / finishes. Spread the road burden and use possibly might make more people choose public transport or cycling. I work earlier than a lot of people round my area. That means whether driving or cycling to work the roads are quiet. No traffic jams mean no idling engines and more efficient, slightly less polluting trips whether cars or buses. That's before you consider nearly empty roads for cycling on.

These aren't the solution just something extra to consider. Modern life needs looking at not just traffic. Perhaps there's bit gains all round from changing work habits?

Mike Sales
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Aug 2019, 8:36am

Tangled Metal wrote:Surely bans aren't a good idea. The good idea is to make public transport cheaper and better if you can. Make bike use a realistic option for more people.

Why should it always need a stick. What is wrong with trying the carrot instead?


I guess the carrot is not always sufficient.
It is difficult to imagine buses more convenient than having a car outside your door which you can climb into whenever you like.
I remember a TV programme on just this issue in which a woman was asked what sort of bus service would get her out of her car. She said the bus would have to pick her up from outside her house whenever she needed it.
The need to pedal a bike and share the road with motors makes cycling worse than driving for most.

reohn2
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby reohn2 » 27 Aug 2019, 8:53am

Tangled Metal wrote:.Why should it always need a stick.

Because the situation has been let to get dire with children suffering and dying from the effects of letting things get out of hand.

What is wrong with trying the carrot instead?

Because those who can afford it will carry on using cars in cities until they're stopped,and it's as Mike Sales posted those who can't afford to live elsewhere suffer the consequence of pollution of such diabolical air quality.
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pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 9:17am

What do we mean by banning diesel and petrol cars from Scottish cities? At a guess we are talking about Glasgow and Edinburgh, and we are talking about the central areas. Not the suburbs, just the centres. With some cities that would mean everywhere within an inner ring road. If that is what is being mooted here, that seems doable. Combined with more spending on city edge car parks with Park and Ride, and other good public transport and cycle routes, I see no problem. Money will be a problem, but everything else could work if it were done in a joined up way. And the city centres would be nicer places to be. Visitors would feel a benefit.

But why let electric cars in? Surely that is just hanging on to congestion. Okay, there will be exceptions for disabled folk who cannot access public transport, but why allow in other electric cars? They still pollute, albeit to a smaller degree. They still slow down pedestrian movement and inhibit cycling.