Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Oldjohnw
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Aug 2019, 4:55pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Just wondering who the car owning classes are.


They are the poorest of course, but also those too young or too old to drive, or too disabled physically or mentally.



Or who have ditched cars because they have no need for them.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 27 Aug 2019, 4:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Aug 2019, 4:56pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Just wondering who the car owning classes are.


They are the poorest of course, but also those too young or too old to drive, or too disabled physically or mentally.



Or who have ditched card because they have no need for them.


I would be very happy if there were many of these.

pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 5:44pm

Pete Owens wrote:I find it vomit inducing when the car owning classes use faux concern for the poor when defending their privileges against any restriction on the use of their cars.

The "car owning classes being the 76%"? An even greater percentage if you stick to those economically active. My own view is that if we are going to keep some cars out of city centres we should not confine that restriction to the older ICE kinds of car that the less affluent can afford. If those on lower incomes cannot afford electric cars, I would rather see electric cars banned too. After all, it isn't pleasant cycling alongside any traffic, even if it is electric.

If only electric cars are to be allowed in that could mean the poorer paid staff in an office are forced to adopt alternative transport types (a good thing) but their mangers are still able to swan in in their Teslas.

Pete Owens
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Pete Owens » 27 Aug 2019, 6:46pm

pwa wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:I find it vomit inducing when the car owning classes use faux concern for the poor when defending their privileges against any restriction on the use of their cars.

The "car owning classes being the 76%"?

Possibly 76% live in households where someone has access to a car.
Even so than that still leaves 24% without - and that 24% is strongly correlated with low income - ie the poor that you are supposedly concerned about.

Now I am a lefty. I would welcome higher levels of taxation used to redistribute income to the poor and see a more equal society. I see the increased use of foodbanks and housing people in office blocks and shipping containers as a sign that there is something very unhealthy about society. But even I don't think that universal credit should be raised sufficiently to fund the buying and running of motor vehicles. And if you don't either then leave out the Socialism-for-Motorists guff.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 Aug 2019, 7:20pm

reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:
What is wrong with trying the carrot instead?

Because those who can afford it will carry on using cars in cities until they're stopped.

Isn't that an argument against the stick? Basically it doesn't work except for the poor. The more stick you give won't matter because you'll reach the point where those left can afford it. Or you'll get voted out of office by the middle and upper classes.

It seems there's really only the stick going on. Even London cycle highways is very little carrot considering what other countries manage.

pwa
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2019, 8:08pm

Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:I find it vomit inducing when the car owning classes use faux concern for the poor when defending their privileges against any restriction on the use of their cars.

The "car owning classes being the 76%"?

Possibly 76% live in households where someone has access to a car.
Even so than that still leaves 24% without - and that 24% is strongly correlated with low income - ie the poor that you are supposedly concerned about.

Now I am a lefty. I would welcome higher levels of taxation used to redistribute income to the poor and see a more equal society. I see the increased use of foodbanks and housing people in office blocks and shipping containers as a sign that there is something very unhealthy about society. But even I don't think that universal credit should be raised sufficiently to fund the buying and running of motor vehicles. And if you don't either then leave out the Socialism-for-Motorists guff.

Your answer would let the better off continue driving around city centres. Mine wouldn't. Your answer would mean more cars still allowed into the centre than mine. Your answer is less fair and it is soft on car owners with more dosh. Your answer is the answer of privilege.

By setting up a hurdle that the better off can and will leap over, you just price out the less well off. Isn't it better to find a mechanism that puts everyone onto buses, on bikes, or walking, not just the less well off?

reohn2
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby reohn2 » 27 Aug 2019, 8:45pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:
Because those who can afford it will carry on using cars in cities until they're stopped.

Isn't that an argument against the stick? Basically it doesn't work except for the poor. The more stick you give won't matter because you'll reach the point where those left can afford it. Or you'll get voted out of office by the middle and upper classes.

It seems there's really only the stick going on. Even London cycle highways is very little carrot considering what other countries manage.

I really don't see how you come to that conclusion.
If you stop the use of private cars within town and cities then air and noise pollution will be cut an absolute minimum at a stoke,along with stress levels,add to that a decent green public transport system and seriously provide for active travel,which puts everyone on the same level,rich or poor.
Once in place people might find life's better in towns and cities,similar to how they found it in NL many years ago.It's one step to a more social and equal way to live,rather than the sickly class system currently in the UK,however covert that maybe.
Last edited by reohn2 on 27 Aug 2019, 9:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Bmblbzzz » 27 Aug 2019, 9:10pm

On this problem of environmental action and social justice: environmental problems are global. 50% of environmental damage is caused by the richest 10% of the world's population while the poorest 50% cause only 10% of the damage (according to Oxfam; the detail might be questionable but certainly the rough idea is right). Virtually everyone in the UK, including those without access to cars, is in that richest 10%.

Syd
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Syd » 27 Aug 2019, 9:52pm

Lothian buses, which operate in and around Edinburgh, are consistently award public transport operator of the year for Scotland and provide a frequent, reliable and relatively inexpensive service.

The majority of my colleagues use the bus fir their commuting and leave the car at home.

Carlton green
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Carlton green » 27 Aug 2019, 10:35pm

I’m inclined to think that the suggested ban will have significant unintended consequences that are adverse to the cities and their populations.

Shopping in cities is difficult enough as it is, well for those that live some distance away, and hence the high street is dying. Personal transport in the form of motorised vehicles allows workers to reach places of employment that would be completely impractical by public transport. Take someone’s mobility away and you seriously threaten their livelihood and certainly restrict their career prospects - I remember only too well how awfully restrictive buses were to me as a youth ... both to social life and career (pay, job even).

I’m all for active transport and sustainable ways of living but whilst the motives of the proposed change might be laudable the complete consequences might well be just the opposite. A lot more research and analysis is needed, if there is to be change then IMHO the whole process needs to be very carefully thought through first.

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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Bmblbzzz » 27 Aug 2019, 10:50pm

The fact is that livelihoods, careers and lives are going to change radically. Many jobs will disappear, some new ones will take some of their places. Either we start doing this about twenty years ago in a controlled manner and cope with the pain or we carry on ignoring it and it will happen suddenly in an uncontrolled manner and we won't cope with the pain.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby The utility cyclist » 27 Aug 2019, 11:53pm

Scottish parliament won't even make 20mph speed limits a thing in built up areas despite the damage done by not doing so and their reasoning to not bring change was utterly illogical given we already have a carte blanche speed limit in place AND that EVs are most efficient at this speed in any case.

reohn2
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby reohn2 » 28 Aug 2019, 9:33am

Freddie wrote:I thought the planet was dying and we need drastic measures to save it. The social injustice of the poor not being able to drive in cities hardly registers when faced with the forecast of a global extinction level event. How is a little suffering now worse than a lot in the future? (and who do you think will be suffering the most in the future, hardly the well off).

If everything has to be equal before action can be taken, the only way that it possible is if almost everyone ends up with nothing (Soviet Union). Of course, even in these very equal places the powerful and influential had far more than the poor, who often starved to death and had it rather worse than in places where things were superficially more unequal.

The new religion of equality is perhaps more of a pollutant than all the CO2 being spewed out into the atmosphere, because when faced with an ability to enact positive change, it can't be done because people will be disproportionately affected.

Everything in nature is disproportionate, there is nothing equal under the sun.

The thing is that with pollution everyone suffers,so when you stop or at least minimise the pollution everyone benefits,rich and poor alike.
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Carlton green
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Carlton green » 28 Aug 2019, 9:42am

Bmblbzzz wrote:The fact is that livelihoods, careers and lives are going to change radically. Many jobs will disappear, some new ones will take some of their places. Either we start doing this about twenty years ago in a controlled manner and cope with the pain or we carry on ignoring it and it will happen suddenly in an uncontrolled manner and we won't cope with the pain.


I posted the text below on the thread about MP’s saying we all had to get out of our cars. It’s valid for this thread too:

“New houses are not built near or next to work places and they need to be, and they need to be desirable places to live too. Companies should be obliged to consider the sustainability of employee transport when they appoint people to join their company. It will not be possible or practical for all employees to live near the company, however a legal requirement for say 40% to live within say five miles (a 30 minute bike ride) would be sensible in terms of environmental transport concerns.”

So basically for the Scottish Cities car ban idea to work to need to remove the need to travel by car and that’s done by having work places along side living places. Planning permission for new homes needs to consider (in broad terms) where the occupants will be able to work and how they will get there; we need offices, shops, schools, warehouses and factories to be built either alongside housing or a very short distance away.

I suggested a 40% with 5 miles policy above and think that a further boundary of 80% with say 12 miles would be good too. The spare 20% is intended for the likes of those living in rural and sparsely populated areas; work can be a long distance away and the problem is compounded for two wage earner families - especially so in times of recession. Those that live in rural communities need support and some other people have to work many miles from where home is ... often such people are away from home and family whole weeks and longer.
Last edited by Carlton green on 28 Aug 2019, 10:10am, edited 3 times in total.

Mike Sales
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Re: Proposal to ban petrol and diesel cars from Scottish cities

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Aug 2019, 9:51am

reohn2 wrote:The thing is that with pollution everyone suffers,so when you stop or at least minimise the pollution everyone benefits,rich and poor alike.


Richer people can afford to move out of the more polluted areas. Motoring enables people to live in "leafy suburbs" , or out in the country and to commute to the more polluted city, past the schools and homes of those who live in cheaper, less salubrious areas, where they add to the pollution. So the poor can benefit more from less pollution.