Yet another Death?

merseymouth
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Yet another Death?

Postby merseymouth » 24 Sep 2019, 4:30pm

Hi there, Just found out today that yet another of my clubmates, Tricycle Association, has been run down and killed by someone driving a HGV!
That we keep having riders killed is that the consequence for errant or dangerous drivers is so pathetically inadequate, not that it would bring the poor victim back, nor to offer solace to the poor family & friends who have been deprived of their presence!
When will the perceived penalty be enough to deter taking the risk that endangers others? The needless death keep stacking up.
Miss you Jim, MM

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Cugel
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Cugel » 24 Sep 2019, 5:18pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi there, Just found out today that yet another of my clubmates, Tricycle Association, has been run down and killed by someone driving a HGV!
That we keep having riders killed is that the consequence for errant or dangerous drivers is so pathetically inadequate, not that it would bring the poor victim back, nor to offer solace to the poor family & friends who have been deprived of their presence!
When will the perceived penalty be enough to deter taking the risk that endangers others? The needless death keep stacking up.
Miss you Jim, MM


Commiserations, although they'll be no compensation for the loss, as you say.

Personally I feel that harsh penalties for traffic law transgressions will not have sufficient deterrent effect by themselves. Most who drive badly, stupidly, aggressively and so forth don't realise they are dangerous. They believe in the myth of the "road traffic accident". Not to say that harsher penalties of some kinds won't have any effect. The prospect of losing your license forever if you habitually speed, go about drunk or prattle into your phone whilst driving will surely deter some - but far from all.

The major and root cause of so-called RTAs is the nature of the motorised vehicles and the infrastructure in which they're used.

There's no "need" for motorised vehicles to be capable of the top speeds and acceleration they are typically imbued with. There is no need for roads shared by other users, especially pedestrians, cyclists and horses, to allow speeds as high as are currently allowed. If the speed limit in towns was 15mph is would not significantly reduce journey times, for example. In fact it might reduce them.

There are dozens of changes that could be made to the nature of motorised vehicles as well as dozens of changes to limit the dangerous usage allowed or even encouraged by the road infrastructure.

But we'll not have them as long as the advert man and the designers are allowed to produce and sell cars in the way they do. And as long as our society portrays driving fast like an idiot as some sort of fundamental freedom or right.

My own inclination is to make everyone suffer what CG calls "transport poverty". Walk, cycle or get a train/bus as the norm, with the facilities and laws to enable or even enforce that. Adapt our lifestyles if necessary.

Cugel

brynpoeth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Sep 2019, 6:26pm

Transport poverty, I am planning that for my retirement (cycling + walking a lot, hope that is allowed)
..
Yesterday a truck driver killed an Ebike rider at a place I cycle several times a week
A police spokesperson reported that traffic was slightly disrupted for a short while
Makes one sick
I think demos and blockades like FFFF should be organised

She was the second female ebiker killed in town this year. The paper speculated that the coach driver who killed the first one misjudged her speed (she was cycling downhill)
Makes one sick
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merseymouth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby merseymouth » 24 Sep 2019, 6:48pm

Hello all, So right both Cugel & Brynpoeth! But as on most days I witness a so called professional driver driving his vehicle the wrong way in a clearly marked pedestrian zone, whilst using his mobile phone?
One of the root causes of the problem is the lack of active Police activity, no Police working at the prime shopping hours, but a plentiful supply of Rozzers during the late drinking hours!
Why no active CCTV intervention? Evidential footage with a proper prosecution outcome? MM

brynpoeth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Sep 2019, 7:02pm

They have other priorities, local website reported that a cycling officer had found an abandoned cuddly rabbit near the train station
Makes one sick, or is that 'Humour in Uniform'?
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atlas_shrugged
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby atlas_shrugged » 25 Sep 2019, 9:59am

So sorry that this has happened. The Tricycle Association are a fabulous organisation.

I would like to see each fatal crash involving a motor vehicle and a vulnerable road user have a default liability of at least £10M that is paid towards vision zero road/greenway rebuilding.

Each crash must pay towards ensuring that this never happens again.

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mjr
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby mjr » 25 Sep 2019, 10:33am

Agree with many sentiments above, including that deterrents don't work, especially when people think there's little chance of being caught for the contributory offences like phone use.

I think driver retesting needs beefing up, but I think HGV drivers are already retested and it's more the bad vehicle designs or useage to tackle there.

What's FFFF?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Sep 2019, 10:38am

mjr wrote:Agree with many sentiments above, including that deterrents don't work, especially when people think there's little chance of being caught for the contributory offences like phone use.

I think driver retesting needs beefing up, but I think HGV drivers are already retested and it's more the bad vehicle designs or useage to tackle there.

What's FFFF?



I think that (fear of being caught - or lack of) is the fact with all crime. Criminals don't so much fear the punishment as actually being caught.
John

Cycling and recycling

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661-Pete
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby 661-Pete » 25 Sep 2019, 12:43pm

Many sympathies, MM, for the tragic loss of your friend. I still think that education is better than deterrent - even if others disagree. Incorporate much more emphatic cyclist-awareness in the Driving Test, and in HGV and PSV tests. Keep on reminding motorists of their obligations towards more vulnerable road users. Maybe the time has come to re-test motorists every few years? Expensive? Yes - for the motorist. I'm a motorist, and I'd be willing to pay.

Incidentally, I shall have to renew my Driving licence next year, when I turn 70. Should I perhaps face a Driving Test then? :shock:
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brooksby
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby brooksby » 25 Sep 2019, 1:30pm


merseymouth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby merseymouth » 25 Sep 2019, 4:14pm

Hello there, I sent an e:mail to Wiltshire Police today pointing out my displeasure that so ill-informed a statement was issued was posted in their name!
A tricycle has been a well known means of transport for almost 160 years, the word is self explanatory, unlike "A 3 wheel bicycle"! How such ignorant wording perpetrated by a service charge with gathering evidence accurately non-plusses me.
All to often the Police overlook the basic fact that motor traffic is on the road by conditional license, one condition being to "Drive with due care & attention"! If folk can't control such vehicles then they should not be allowed to continue to imperil society at large. I've lost too many friends in such a fashion to have any faith in the Police Service to get a grip on the rising death toll. MM

Carlton green
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Carlton green » 25 Sep 2019, 6:41pm

merseymouth wrote:
When will the perceived penalty be enough to deter taking the risk that endangers others?

The needless death keep stacking up.



A very good question and one that’s next to impossible to answer. Some years back a co-worker got convicted of drink driving and lost his licence for 12 months, he was supposed to be someone clever but for some reason he just didn’t ‘get it’, that you shouldn’t drink and drive. Several years back a speeding veteran motorist crossed the road and hit me head on with his car. Fortunately I came to a stop well before he hit me (at speed) and the crumple zones worked. Both cars were written off and the other guy just got a slapped wrist, I had plenty of witnesses too. What an amazing situation. In these computerised times a lot of delivery drivers have tight schedules to meet and managers pushing them to go faster and not miss delivery slots. The driver is incentivised to drive recklessly to avoid the certain consequences of management sanction for being late.

Of course there are other situations in which collisions happen but let’s deal with the three I mention above. Those folk that can’t manage their own behaviour just don’t believe that they get will caught and hence it doesn’t matter what they do. With Police thin on the ground I can only encourage the supply of video footage to the Police for them to follow up, even a warning is better than nothing and might change behaviours. When there has been a collision prosecution should be more or less certain to occur, in my own case the other driver could have killed me and hence at least some form of assault charge should have been made and the insurance companies lost about £20k part of which he should have been sued for. In the case of lorry drivers custodial sentences should be the norm and mangers need to understand that they will be in the Dock too and very possibly in prison alongside their driver - encouraging and pressuring others to offend is serious.

Of course little to nothing will change because big chunks of the electorate know that their behaviour isn’t what it should be and others fear that some genuine accident (few are) or minor transgression might then result in massively negative consequences for them. Additionally the Police, Courts and Prison Service are simply unwilling and unable to deliver the needed consequences of the proposed changes.
Last edited by Carlton green on 25 Sep 2019, 6:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bigjim
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby bigjim » 25 Sep 2019, 6:46pm

One of the root causes of the problem is the lack of active Police activity, no Police working at the prime shopping hours, but a plentiful supply of Rozzers during the late drinking hours!

That's actually incorrect. A shift has the same number of officers no matter what time it is. My son is a Response officer. The shortage of police to deal with increasing crime is the problem. Most police time in the evening/nigh-time hours is taken up by domestic abuse cases. Usually fueled by drink or drugs. Once upon a long time ago the police were double manned on jobs. My son is almost always solo. Good fun turning up on your own dealing with violent drug or drink fueled nutters. As for activity. On shift he never stops, his radio controller tries to send him to one job while he is still dealing with another. Then he can get a rollicking because he has not been able to sit in the station writing up a report on his last arrest. You can't keep up and he would leave tomorrow. He's lost all faith in the system. Comments like the above don't help.
Nothing left to prove.

Carlton green
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Carlton green » 25 Sep 2019, 6:51pm

bigjim wrote:
One of the root causes of the problem is the lack of active Police activity, no Police working at the prime shopping hours, but a plentiful supply of Rozzers during the late drinking hours!

That's actually incorrect. A shift has the same number of officers no matter what time it is. My son is a Response officer. The shortage of police to deal with increasing crime is the problem. Most police time in the evening/nigh-time hours is taken up by domestic abuse cases. Usually fueled by drink or drugs. Once upon a long time ago the police were double manned on jobs. My son is almost always solo. Good fun turning up on your own dealing with violent drug or drink fueled nutters. As for activity. On shift he never stops, his radio controller tries to send him to one job while he is still dealing with another. Then he can get a rollicking because he has not been able to sit in the station writing up a report on his last arrest. You can't keep up and he would leave tomorrow. He's lost all faith in the system. Comments like the above don't help.


A useful rebalancing of the debate from (IIRC) someone who’s been there and done that.
Last edited by Carlton green on 25 Sep 2019, 8:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Sep 2019, 8:33pm

FFFF is Fridays for Future of course, on 20.9 they blocked the traffic in many towns
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