Yet another Death?

merseymouth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby merseymouth » 26 Sep 2019, 7:51am

Hello Bigjim, I speak as it is in Liverpool! Getting any force to reveal operational statistics is problematic, giving the enemy succour.
I don't blame the serving officers, but lay the blame on circumstances forced upon them!
Certainly in Liverpool the change to Licensing Hours brought about a horrible environment, officers having to deal with drink fuelled kinife crime, not nice, but the authorities were warned in advance.
So whilst in daytime I might see PSO's, I rarely encounter Proper Coppers!
What is really needed is a sea change in all aspects of Vehicle design & use, with real need design not asperational dreams!
Commercial traffic is a problem, JIT deliveries being a serious concern. When a driver turns up 10 minutes late at Tescos with boxes of crisps that have travelled half the country, only to be refused acceptance is dire! Food miles are bad enough but throw in time pressures then it is clearly evident that we have lost the plot :twisted: .
Maybe we need more Pink Boat toting Environmentalists to bring about some form of sanity?
But a club mate is still DEAD! MM

eclipse
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Location: Darlington

Re: Yet another Death?

Postby eclipse » 26 Sep 2019, 2:16pm

With a foot in both camps..... I read this post on another forum; a tragic event indeed.

"On Monday I was heading back up the A303 from Oxford back to my depot in Henstridge after tipping my steel load. One or two hills before Solstice Services the small black car in front of me put on its right indicator and changed lanes. Despite questioning why on earth he was moving out of the empty inside lane to the outside lane I followed suit. I squinted my eyes, it was noon and the light was good. Was that a bike? Omg there was a 3 wheeled bike cycling on the 70mph dualed A303 - I could barely see him! From the view in my cab looking down on the bike who was travelling uphill, the backdrop was tarmac. Trust me that bike was nearly invisible to me. Non lorry drivers think that because of our elevated view we have a better view of everything but this is not always the case. The view of the bike from a car was probably much better. They would have been at a very similar height so a car drivers view would probably have silhouetted the cyclist against the skyline making him much more visible. I remember passing the bike with the cyclist standing up in his pedals trying to get up the hill thinking that was an accident waiting to happen!

5 minutes later that cyclist was dead."

As an HGV driver myself, I have to say that I am frequently impressed by the attitude of most of my colleagues in matters of road safety. Our days may consist of 400 mile journeys, on roads stuffed full of apparently imbecilic drivers who do not understand the highway code, each journey peppered with several manoeuvres required to avoid incident. I do think goods drivers hours are far too long (15 hour shifts anyone?), and pressure to meet deadlines too harsh though.

On that other forum, of course the argument tends to be all about cyclists with a 'death wish'.


Short of cutting motorised traffic by 75%, and a more caring and responsible attitude by all, I haven't got any answers for this .

atlas_shrugged
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Joined: 8 Nov 2016, 7:50pm

Re: Yet another Death?

Postby atlas_shrugged » 26 Sep 2019, 3:07pm

@eclipse (edit: oops sorry I thought the above was your post)
What should that trike rider have done that was different? e.g.

Ride with flashing lights
Hi viz vest
Not ride on a dual carriageway

Not trying to victim blame at all. I have an interest in this area and would like to know your opinion of what he should have done that was different.

Carlton green
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Carlton green » 26 Sep 2019, 3:31pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:@eclipse (edit: oops sorry I thought the above was your post)
What should that trike rider have done that was different? e.g.

Ride with flashing lights
Hi viz vest
Not ride on a dual carriageway

Not trying to victim blame at all. I have an interest in this area and would like to know your opinion of what he should have done that was different.


An interesting alternative perspective offered (by eclipse) and asking of someone what could have been done differently is likely to get the messenger shot.

The interface between those that pedal and those that drive could be usefully explored on a separate thread but, it seems to me, that it’s likely to be too much of an emotive topic.

tatanab
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby tatanab » 26 Sep 2019, 3:51pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:Hi viz vest
At noon in good light high-viz achieves nothing that bright colours do not do.
Not ride on a dual carriageway
Is there a viable alternative?


Like Merseymouth, I knew the rider. A vastly experienced clubman.

Pete Owens
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Pete Owens » 26 Sep 2019, 3:56pm

eclipse wrote:"... I squinted my eyes, it was noon and the light was good. Was that a bike? Omg there was a 3 wheeled bike cycling on the 70mph dualed A303 - I could barely see him! From the view in my cab looking down on the bike who was travelling uphill, the backdrop was tarmac. Trust me that bike was nearly invisible to me..."


If they have trouble seeing vehicles on the road in front of them in conditions of good visibility then they should consider handing in their driving licence - and most certainly book a trip to the optician before getting into the cab again.

Icsunonove
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Icsunonove » 26 Sep 2019, 4:10pm

Don't we employ people whose responsibility is to try to make our roads safe/safer? Many roads, the A303 included, are being steadily 'improved' i.e. effectively being turned into motorways with, it seems, little real consideration for all road users. It is a case of prioritising motorised vehicle throughput and journey times over the safety and convenience of vulnerable road users. I just watched the 'Stop Killing our Children' film by ETA trust. A quote from that (about the Netherlands before they set about improving cycle safety): "This country chooses 1km of motorway over 100km of safe cycle paths".

mattheus
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby mattheus » 26 Sep 2019, 4:32pm

Pete Owens wrote:
eclipse wrote:"... I squinted my eyes, it was noon and the light was good. Was that a bike? Omg there was a 3 wheeled bike cycling on the 70mph dualed A303 - I could barely see him! From the view in my cab looking down on the bike who was travelling uphill, the backdrop was tarmac. Trust me that bike was nearly invisible to me..."


If they have trouble seeing vehicles on the road in front of them in conditions of good visibility then they should consider handing in their driving licence - and most certainly book a trip to the optician before getting into the cab again.


I'm broadly of the view that HGV drivers are some of the best/safest on the roads, but in this case I would question how he can justify not seeing another road-user in plain sight.

There is NOTHING special about a dual-carriageway; if he was "invisible" on that road to A_Trucker, then he could be invisible on any other UK road. So does he think that any cyclist on a public road is "an accident waiting to happen" ??

I know that sometimes freak conditions conspire - certain sightlines, colours, backgrounds - and make normal things hard to see, so I'm not leaping to judge this driver's competency too hastily. But you do have to question his eyesight ...

merseymouth
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby merseymouth » 26 Sep 2019, 4:42pm

hello there, The pressure on HGV drivers is not created by law abiding cyclist!
On reason is of course consumerism and food miles. I can never fathom out why stuff has to travel so far just because it has a certain label?
Take crisps, back a while each area would have its local brand, in Merseyside it was Golden Wonder, prepared near Widnes, didn't have to go far. But thanks to the endless process of advertising folk hooked up to Brand Loyalty, so we find HGV's criss-crossing the country just to deliver different brands of sliced & cooked potatoes?? As someone who can't be bothered with the things I may be biased.
Same goes with beer, rather than quench the thirst with a good local brew we have been marketed to someones death :twisted: .
Even vegetables which would have been sourced locally rack up the miles to our kitchens!
Throw in the air freight of such Items and we add environmental damage to human carnage, not sensible.
Yes, I'm an old F*rt, but change isn't always for the better. MM
* The TA remembers the killing of a nice lady tricyclist who was eye-wateringly bright, run over from the rear by a driver with seriously defective vision, as proven at the inquest. Nothing improves, we all miss Fliss.

atlas_shrugged
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby atlas_shrugged » 26 Sep 2019, 4:57pm

MM

Completely agree with you. Transporting goods from Timbuktu when it could be produced locally makes no sense.

eclipse
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Location: Darlington

Re: Yet another Death?

Postby eclipse » 26 Sep 2019, 5:23pm

I don't think that I've an easy answer to this one, just observations.
I can remember as a youngster in the 70s, watching time trialists on a Saturday morning near Catterick. Never caused a problem as I can remember, and seemed quite unremarkable and normal. You don't see that on the A1 now....
I am myself getting far more nervous on major roads on my bike over the years, and it's not just an age thing. There are roads which I avoid, because they're too frantic, and I'm aware of just how little importance many many drivers place on awareness of their surroundings. This combination keeps me off fast main roads as a result, and this self imposed restriction annoys me.
I suppose my stance is that with an ever increasing volume of powerful machinery filling the roads, then they are likely to become less attractive and riskier for small, slow vehicles to travel on. (I even include my 1949 AJS in this.... no fun on a motorway, but has every right to be there) Ultimately the rider has to make their own mind up, and risk is inherent in many activities.
The truck driver of course has a responsibility to others of course, and I would be the first to condemn if they were negligent in this.
I feel strongly that there are far ,far too many vehicles (trucks included) on the roads, carrying out far too many pointless, irrelevant journeys at the massive expense of the environment, and at great human cost.
But we all know that anyway......
p.s..... I never drive my truck at full pelt; always leave quite a bit in hand, as do many colleagues, however many are pressurised to max out on speed/deliveries/driving hours......

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mjr
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby mjr » 26 Sep 2019, 5:56pm

That's all lovely but how can we change it? Clearly the 17% of the local population who cycle switching to locally-made Corker's crisps isn't going to be enough!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

eclipse
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby eclipse » 26 Sep 2019, 5:58pm

That's the big question isn't it? :roll:

Icsunonove
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby Icsunonove » 27 Sep 2019, 9:48am

mjr wrote:That's all lovely but how can we change it? Clearly the 17% of the local population who cycle switching to locally-made Corker's crisps isn't going to be enough!

eclipse wrote:That's the big question isn't it? :roll:

As a society we make it someone's job to make the road network safer for all users. We give them a significant percentage of the roads budget to spend solely on this aim. We give them the authority to change speed limits where other interventions are not practicable.

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mjr
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Re: Yet another Death?

Postby mjr » 27 Sep 2019, 10:01am

Icsunonove wrote:
mjr wrote:That's all lovely but how can we change it? Clearly the 17% of the local population who cycle switching to locally-made Corker's crisps isn't going to be enough!

eclipse wrote:That's the big question isn't it? :roll:

As a society we make it someone's job to make the road network safer for all users. We give them a significant percentage of the roads budget to spend solely on this aim. We give them the authority to change speed limits where other interventions are not practicable.

And then they refuse to do it for various spurious reasons which I suspect are covers for "won't upset motorists". How do we change this?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.