Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

ossie
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby ossie » 28 Sep 2019, 10:08am

brynpoeth wrote:What is the legal situation in other countries?


Great article below about Germany. Its illegal and a 5 euro fine apparently or at least was in 2014. We were taught from a young age not to do it. The majority of pedestrians still adhere to it as they did when I lived there . However as many cycle paths and pavements are intertwined it was mainly cyclists who seemed to ignore the red light apart from at the busiest of junctions. I just found a general degree of confusion, clearly things are evolving / changing.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expat ... rmany.html

basingstoke123
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby basingstoke123 » 28 Sep 2019, 1:06pm

ossie wrote:I had no idea that if you pressed the button and the traffic cleared after you press it, the lights won't change. I guess that's down to the detector things on top.

Its clever but for someone raised in a country where jaywalking is illegal it kind of goes against the grain.


I think that some lights will cancel if they detect that you have crossed (or walked away) and so, not stop road traffic unnecessarily. Lights will always wait for a gap in the traffic before giving red to the road traffic. If there is no gap, then after a delay, they will stop the road traffic irrespectively. I've never had lights that did not go to green for pedestrians because there was no traffic on the road.

I don't press the request if there is no traffic, or I can see a gap. However, if I have pressed the request, I often have safely crossed before the lights change, and then hear the beep beep beep behind me a few seconds later, as the traffic now stops for an empty pedestrian crossing. The lights are biased in favour of cars, which backfires because many pedestrians (and more so cyclists) will have crossed before the lights change.

So, a system that is intended to not stop cars ends up stopping cars unnecessarily.

I could wait for the lights to change, but that will just delay me, and make no difference to the road traffic (other than be less frustrating to drivers). Or I could wait wait longer before pressing the request button in case there is a gap soon, But if there isn't a gap, I would then have a double wait.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby The utility cyclist » 28 Sep 2019, 2:25pm

Ellieb wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
Mick F wrote:Don't blame motorists.

I understand there were more people killed on the roads BEFORE the advent of the motorcar.
Horse-drawn vehicles were the killer.

This tells me you simply don't get it, you think might is right and that those with might have greater priority and entitlement to travel unencumbered than people getting in the way whom are much more vulnerable/have less might, and if they get in the way and get hurt it's their fault, not the person who is travelling in a carriage that kills/maims with impunity ... :roll:

as a person who rides a bike I thought you would understand how that is massively wrong, seemingly not!

Alternatively: People using different forms of transport need to realise that we all have to get along together, if we are all going to get where we are going in safety. I won’t wander aimlessly into the road if you don’t drive on the pavement. I’ll pay attention when I’m riding my bike, if you’ll treat me with courtesy & consideration. Being on foot doesn’t make me morally superior in the same way ‘paying road tax’ doesn’t give you more right to use the public highway.


There's "getting along" and there's taking the majority of the landscape by force of might and fear along with punishments if you don't conform. That punishment is at its extreme end is being killed, and to boot being blamed for getting killed. We see this all the time, Michael Mason was blamed for his death by the MET police, because he had a black jacket (in a well lit street and having legal lights) and the fact he wasn't wearing a helmet.
If a women was raped and murdered and the police stated that she was wearing clothes that meant she attracted a rapist and wasn't wearing an anti rape device (which would likely increase the violence of the attacker through frustration in any case) she was at fault and would not charge or refer the murderer to the CPS that would be insane, yet that's precisely what the MET did with Michael Mason (as one recent example).

Why did that happen, well it's because the mentality is that motorists and their conveyance have full priority and everyone else should get out the way or it's tough luck what happens to you, and that if you don't armour up (with known equipment that doesn't protect you) then you're simply asking for it.
Not only is it sickening and perverse, it's unlawful because it discriminates against the vulnerable only in that one area of life and it breaches basic human rights as well as the police breaching their sworn oath/attestation.

fastpedaller
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby fastpedaller » 28 Sep 2019, 3:53pm

Absolutely agree with the comments of UC above.
An example of how 'we can get along' happened to me in the last hour....
Cycling along a narrow lane near home, a guy in a VW car coming towards me slowed (almost to a stop) to allow my passage, and got a wave of thanks, to which he responded similarly - all good. 200 yards further on a 'twin cab farmer's wagon' one of those Ford Ranger or similar made no such allowance, and indeed even speeded up as he went through a puddle and flung mud over me to boot. He got no wave (or other hand gestures :roll: ) as I was too busy using the last inch of available lane to avoid him :( . Yes, it's great if we can all accommodate each other's needs, but that shouldn't become 'the mighty will just tread on everyone else' and as they 'are the majority' then all is well.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby The utility cyclist » 28 Sep 2019, 5:07pm

fastpedaller wrote:Absolutely agree with the comments of UC above.
An example of how 'we can get along' happened to me in the last hour....
Cycling along a narrow lane near home, a guy in a VW car coming towards me slowed (almost to a stop) to allow my passage, and got a wave of thanks, to which he responded similarly - all good. 200 yards further on a 'twin cab farmer's wagon' one of those Ford Ranger or similar made no such allowance, and indeed even speeded up as he went through a puddle and flung mud over me to boot. He got no wave (or other hand gestures :roll: ) as I was too busy using the last inch of available lane to avoid him :( . Yes, it's great if we can all accommodate each other's needs, but that shouldn't become 'the mighty will just tread on everyone else' and as they 'are the majority' then all is well.


The driver of the twin cab committed a criminal offence, he assaulted you and it was deliberate at that, but it comes under S3 of the RTA as simply careless driving and a £150 fine/3 points is about the most the offender would get IF police even bothered. They would simply laugh at you if you reported this, in response you should throw a bucket of muddy rain water in their faces and say 'well, that's all fine as you've already dismissed what happened to me so we're all equals now and you can't do squat as you'll be breaking your sworn oaths to apply the law equally. :twisted:

Ellieb
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby Ellieb » 28 Sep 2019, 6:09pm

Why did that happen, well it's because the mentality is that motorists and their conveyance have full priority and everyone else should get out the way or it's tough luck what happens to you,


But of course, rather ironically, when it’s a pedestrian walking out in front of a bike. You are one of the people bleating loudest about how it’s the stupid pedestrian at fault.

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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby MikeF » 28 Sep 2019, 10:57pm

Mike Sales wrote:.... Pedestrians used the whole of the road as if they had a right to it!

As in shared use. :wink:
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

fastpedaller
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby fastpedaller » 28 Sep 2019, 10:57pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Absolutely agree with the comments of UC above.
An example of how 'we can get along' happened to me in the last hour....
Cycling along a narrow lane near home, a guy in a VW car coming towards me slowed (almost to a stop) to allow my passage, and got a wave of thanks, to which he responded similarly - all good. 200 yards further on a 'twin cab farmer's wagon' one of those Ford Ranger or similar made no such allowance, and indeed even speeded up as he went through a puddle and flung mud over me to boot. He got no wave (or other hand gestures :roll: ) as I was too busy using the last inch of available lane to avoid him :( . Yes, it's great if we can all accommodate each other's needs, but that shouldn't become 'the mighty will just tread on everyone else' and as they 'are the majority' then all is well.


The driver of the twin cab committed a criminal offence, he assaulted you and it was deliberate at that, but it comes under S3 of the RTA as simply careless driving and a £150 fine/3 points is about the most the offender would get IF police even bothered. They would simply laugh at you if you reported this, in response you should throw a bucket of muddy rain water in their faces and say 'well, that's all fine as you've already dismissed what happened to me so we're all equals now and you can't do squat as you'll be breaking your sworn oaths to apply the law equally. :twisted:


I think the Police wouldn't be interested at all (even if he'd knocked me down) - but I'm sure they'd be interested if I did it to them :shock: So I'll pass on that opportunity :lol:

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby The utility cyclist » 29 Sep 2019, 1:59pm

Ellieb wrote:
Why did that happen, well it's because the mentality is that motorists and their conveyance have full priority and everyone else should get out the way or it's tough luck what happens to you,


But of course, rather ironically, when it’s a pedestrian walking out in front of a bike. You are one of the people bleating loudest about how it’s the stupid pedestrian at fault.
bleating? :lol: You mean times when people give a cyclist no chance to react even when they've slowed and/or swerved, then yes the pedestrian is at fault.
But bother to read again were I've recounted many times on here when I'll slow because of the hazard I could present and they to me whilst putting myself at greater risk of harm from a third party in a 2 ton mass or more! Oh you won't will you because that will show you're a head in the sand bleater :roll:

mikeymo
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby mikeymo » 29 Sep 2019, 3:19pm

mike whittaker wrote:Must adhere to the green man. Car take precedence.


Quite right too. If you've got a red light against you, obey it. Whether you're in a car, on a bike, or walking.

And if you don't obey it, you should be put in the stocks in the middle of the village square, and pelted with rotten fruit till you change your ways ;-)
Last edited by mikeymo on 29 Sep 2019, 3:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

mikeymo
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby mikeymo » 29 Sep 2019, 3:33pm

fastpedaller wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Absolutely agree with the comments of UC above.
An example of how 'we can get along' happened to me in the last hour....
Cycling along a narrow lane near home, a guy in a VW car coming towards me slowed (almost to a stop) to allow my passage, and got a wave of thanks, to which he responded similarly - all good. 200 yards further on a 'twin cab farmer's wagon' one of those Ford Ranger or similar made no such allowance, and indeed even speeded up as he went through a puddle and flung mud over me to boot. He got no wave (or other hand gestures :roll: ) as I was too busy using the last inch of available lane to avoid him :( . Yes, it's great if we can all accommodate each other's needs, but that shouldn't become 'the mighty will just tread on everyone else' and as they 'are the majority' then all is well.


The driver of the twin cab committed a criminal offence, he assaulted you and it was deliberate at that, but it comes under S3 of the RTA as simply careless driving and a £150 fine/3 points is about the most the offender would get IF police even bothered. They would simply laugh at you if you reported this, in response you should throw a bucket of muddy rain water in their faces and say 'well, that's all fine as you've already dismissed what happened to me so we're all equals now and you can't do squat as you'll be breaking your sworn oaths to apply the law equally. :twisted:


I think the Police wouldn't be interested at all (even if he'd knocked me down) - but I'm sure they'd be interested if I did it to them :shock: So I'll pass on that opportunity :lol:


You could report it anyway. If you report it somebody at least has to make a record. And consider if it's worth considering. If they get enough then the police might take action, either in the form of a prosecution or driver "re-education". In my city of Leeds, West Yorkshire Police just had a close pass campaign. Officer on bike, calling close passes in to officers further up the road, pulling drivers up, offering a course instead of prosecution etc.

jh27
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby jh27 » 30 Sep 2019, 3:40pm

mikeymo wrote:
mike whittaker wrote:Must adhere to the green man. Car take precedence.


Quite right too. If you've got a red light against you, obey it. Whether you're in a car, on a bike, or walking.

And if you don't obey it, you should be put in the stocks in the middle of the village square, and pelted with rotten fruit till you change your ways ;-)


Not really. The red man/cycle on pelican and toucan crossings is not like a red traffic light - it does not mean that you must stop and there is no legal requirement to do so. More over, the green man/cycle only shows for a small percentage of the time when all other traffic is stopped and crossing is perfectly safe, at many busy junctions the green man will only show for a quarter of the cycle even when it is safe to cross for 75% of the cycle - and often then, only if someone has pressed the button at some point much earlier in the cycle.

Some busy junctions would require a pedestrian or cyclist to wait for three or more complete cycles of the traffic lights to cross from one side to the other. I can think of one junction near me, where to cross from one side of the road to another, someone has to cross 3 roads, each of which has two crossings - to cross only on the green man might require six cycles of the traffic lights. I should mention, a cyclist was killed by a pedestrian who stepped into the road without looking at this junction.

jh27
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby jh27 » 30 Sep 2019, 4:47pm

brynpoeth wrote:
ossie wrote:I had no idea that if you pressed the button and the traffic cleared after you press it, the lights won't change. I guess that's down to the detector things on top.

Its clever but for someone raised in a country where jaywalking is illegal it kind of goes against the grain.

I sometimes think the lights are controlled by a random number generator, occasionally they change immediately, mostly they take several minutes, or they wait until there is no morton traffic to hold up :?


There are all sorts of algorithms that can be triggered by the button press, which can incorporate all sorts of sensors and timers. I have found various sorts are:
1. Button has no effect - the green man still shows at the same point as it would otherwise.
2. Button has no effect on the traffic lights - but causes the green man to be shown at a point in the cycle, just so that pedestrians/cyclists know that it is currently one of the safe times to cross - it only lights at one of the safe times of course, and only if the button was pressed.
3. The button has an almost immediate effect - but not if someone has crossed shortly beforehand, it will wait for a timer.
4. The above, but with extra sensors to check if there is still someone waiting to cross - you need to try to ensure you are in the sensor zone whilst you wait, otherwise the light will never change.
5. The button has an almost immediate effect. Very rare, the one place I know that has one of these I always use it, as crossing is highly unsafe otherwise (it is an almost blind bend where the speed limit changes from 40 to 30 and a high proportion of drivers continue at 40 or more).

fastpedaller
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby fastpedaller » 2 Oct 2019, 8:29pm

mikeymo wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
The driver of the twin cab committed a criminal offence, he assaulted you and it was deliberate at that, but it comes under S3 of the RTA as simply careless driving and a £150 fine/3 points is about the most the offender would get IF police even bothered. They would simply laugh at you if you reported this, in response you should throw a bucket of muddy rain water in their faces and say 'well, that's all fine as you've already dismissed what happened to me so we're all equals now and you can't do squat as you'll be breaking your sworn oaths to apply the law equally. :twisted:


I think the Police wouldn't be interested at all (even if he'd knocked me down) - but I'm sure they'd be interested if I did it to them :shock: So I'll pass on that opportunity :lol:


You could report it anyway. If you report it somebody at least has to make a record. And consider if it's worth considering. If they get enough then the police might take action, either in the form of a prosecution or driver "re-education". In my city of Leeds, West Yorkshire Police just had a close pass campaign. Officer on bike, calling close passes in to officers further up the road, pulling drivers up, offering a course instead of prosecution etc.


No point in reporting because I didn't get the vehicle number (they'd probably want a description of the driver as well :? ), additionally I'm of the belief (rightly or wrongly) that cyclists' complaints to Police just add up to US (the cyclists) being labelled as 'the common factor' and therefore the cause (in the eyes of the authorities).

mikeymo
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Re: Jaywalking is now a thing in the UK

Postby mikeymo » 3 Oct 2019, 11:32am

basingstoke123 wrote:
ossie wrote:I could wait for the lights to change, but that will just delay me, and make no difference to the road traffic (other than be less frustrating to drivers). Or I could wait wait longer before pressing the request button in case there is a gap soon, But if there isn't a gap, I would then have a double wait.


I wait for the lights to change, without fail, every single time.

When I'm driving a car, and get to a pelican crossing with red lights, but no pedestrian. I wait for the lights to change to green. It delays me of course.