Stop Killing our Children

Icsunonove
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Joined: 15 Oct 2008, 12:59pm

Stop Killing our Children

Postby Icsunonove » 27 Sep 2019, 1:36pm

https://vimeo.com/361286029

A hard hitting and intelligent film. I know most here will be 'on message' already but it would be good to see it shared as widely as possible.

merseymouth
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby merseymouth » 28 Sep 2019, 6:34am

It is time that there was a root & branch overhaul of the standards & abilities of the licensed & "Un-Licensed" users of the roads!
We are also long overdue with proper controls over vehicles that use our roads. We invariably get flack about "Historic Class" banger, exempt from MOT Test, measure of support for that protest, I believe that all vehicles that use our roads should be lawfully compliant, yes that include all variants of pedal cycles, except Unicycle, which have no place on the road! Why should anyone protest about only using a safe vehicle?
Boy & Girl Racers should be confined to race tracks, an end to all naughty practises, chipping, boosting et al, strictly enforced machine control, why should anyone need to prat about endangering others. If they think that they are as good as Lewis Hamilton, they go to where he practised his art, take up Kart Racing. I worked with a lad who was a former British Karting Champion. He had fast Karts, but drove around in a standard form van which lugged his Kart & gear about.
The days of "Toads on the Road" must end! MM

reohn2
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby reohn2 » 28 Sep 2019, 11:35am

Almost everytime I ride on the road there are attempts to bully me by car drivers,these come in various the forms such as deliberate close(punishment)passes,etc.Along with that I witness daily what I can only describe a mad driving,such as overtaking on blind bends or when I have clearly signaled with an extended right arm to turn right,etc.
It's no better when I'm driving,tailgating seems to be an accepted pastime by mainly young women drivers.Yesterday at 6.30 pm at a large and complicated TL junction with six branches with a 30mph limit,I witnessed two small hatchbacks race straight through it at 50+mph.And I've lost count of the number of illegal trail motorbikes without reg plates zooming about the place locally.
These incidents and many,many more I could list,are as a result of a total lack of any form of effective policing with penalties to match,as a result it's simply become lawless on the roads.
This situation has been getting steadily worse over a number of years from both a cycling and motoring perspective,it is mayhem at times with overcrowded roads and stressed drivers wanting seemingly to be at their destination before they've left wherever it is they've started from.
The problem is IMO one of entitlement,power and size,bullying has become the norm the more congested the traffic,drivers know they can get away with almost anything even when their wreckless and dangerous driving is proven,the penalties are paltry.
An example:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... ting-story
This has gone on long enough,the worst thing is I personally feel impotent to having any effect on the continuing driver crime wave that's been going on for years because no one in power seems to listen and reporting drivers gets nowhere,as in the case above too many maniacs are behind the wheel of cars.
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I cycle therefore I am.

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Cugel
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby Cugel » 29 Sep 2019, 11:32am

reohn2 wrote:(snip)
The problem is IMO one of entitlement,power and size,bullying has become the norm the more congested the traffic,drivers know they can get away with almost anything even when their wreckless and dangerous driving is proven,the penalties are paltry.
(snip)
This has gone on long enough,the worst thing is I personally feel impotent to having any effect on the continuing driver crime wave that's been going on for years because no one in power seems to listen and reporting drivers gets nowhere,as in the case above too many maniacs are behind the wheel of cars.


First: what are the causes of increasingly poor driving behaviours? There's no singular cause - other than the catch-all or personal favourite we invent for ourselves, such as "feelings of entitlement" or "lack of policing". My own favourites are: "herd-like humans copying the bad behaviours of others"; and "vehicles and infrastructure encouraging indulgence in far too much power and the means to use it".

In truth, there are all sorts of causes for poor driving. In fact, "poor driving" can be broken down into a rather extensive schema of poor-driving types, each one of which might be "caused" by one of several factors. So, identifying a singular cure for all these kinds of poor driving and their large range of causes is never going to be a simple of matter of a single policy. Which brings us to ...

Second: what practical (and pragmatic) measures could be taken to reduce the problem and its ills of death, maiming and the associated knock-on effects on families, community life, the justice system et al? Well, there must be a multiplicity of such measures (to match the multiplicity of poor driving types and their causes) which neither you, I or any individual could completely identify.

So perhaps we should try to identify some measures that would be effective across a range of poor driving types or across a range of the causes? Perhaps some such measures could be identified by a process of starting with a total solution then reducing it to measures that are actually practical and pragmatic?

The total solution is to ban motorised vehicles completely; or those factors of such vehicles that are the problematic factors, such as their speed, power, weight, inadequate controls and the infrastructure allowing those factors to be expressed.

As such a solution is - currently, at least - not a pragmatic one, we then need to determine what degree of reduction in the danger factors stand a chance of being achieved in reality. Would a law insisting all vehicles have speed limiters (to, say, 50mph max) be achievable? Would an infrastructure full of law-breaking detector systems, with automated fines and bans, be acceptable? And so forth. That depends on ....

Third: what is the socio-cultural zeitgeist that makes various behaviours and associated laws popular or unpopular, in the sense of "an achievable target for our various national instruments of change; or not"? The zeitgeist, these days, is more or less determined by the stance of the mass media. We've seen, in other domains, that the mass media can certainly determine other aspects of the national zeitgeist. Consider the campaign against smoking in public (a positive and beneficial change) and the advent of gambling as a legitimate means to derive income and tax (a negative and damaging change). Both of these were introduced and have become norms despite huge opposition to the changes.

How to get a mass media campaign going to make people feel ashamed of bad driving behaviours and their enablers? Here is the the Big Question.

What!? You were expecting The Answer!? :-)

But perhaps this filum is a start?

Well, as with other things, personally I try to change my own behaviour first and then use it (via virtue signalling :-) ) to browbeat others in the hope they too will come to feel shame about their more egregious behaviors. For example, I lecture those boasting or doing bad driving about their infantile attitudes, which they bridle at .... but the implanted memes sink in over time. (Or so I hope). One must get used to being disliked and vilified as a know-it-all or holier-than-thou-er. I confess to having acquired a liking for such status. Tut-tut - I know.

Cugel

reohn2
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby reohn2 » 29 Sep 2019, 7:02pm

Cugel
The biggest fear for a criminal is being caught,if being caught means they lose something dear which such as money(high fines) or liberty(incarceration, loss of licence to drive,curfew,etc),but for those things to happen society needs an effective and just police force and judiciary system.
Our problem is that things have become about face and the tail wags the dog,they were better though never extremely efficient before but are far,far worse now.
There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of fear IMO though motorists,due to the way things have been let slide,have little fear of either being caught or the penalties if they are.
That's our problem.
Once that's rectified things will change,initially those caught will moan and cry,dare I say there'll be nashing of teeth,but once society realises the plusses of such efficiency things will settle down.
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I cycle therefore I am.

merseymouth
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby merseymouth » 30 Sep 2019, 7:57am

Hello again, So maybe we do need the idea of the "Mad Mullah of the Traffic Taliban", Richard Brunstrom, to become a reality?
The actuality of "Speed Cameras In Road Studs", cats eye's etc! Not painted in Hi-Viz Colours, but embedded enforcement of traffic regulations, which could include being located within central "Solid Double White Lines"! Just recall how many times as a cyclist you have been menaced by the silly,dangerous, illegal acts? Throw in the overtake within the "Zig-Zag" areas of pedestrian crossings. Another danger which we regularly endure!
So the best thing we can say that for sensible thinkers would flag it up as a great idea is that Jeremy Clarkson would hate them :D .
Throw into the pot better provision of affordable public transport, then we should bring death rates down and improve personal well-being.
TTFN MM

jh27
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Joined: 22 Nov 2018, 9:29pm

Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby jh27 » 30 Sep 2019, 5:31pm

reohn2 wrote:Cugel
The biggest fear for a criminal is being caught,if being caught means they lose something dear which such as money(high fines) or liberty(incarceration, loss of licence to drive,curfew,etc),but for those things to happen society needs an effective and just police force and judiciary system.
Our problem is that things have become about face and the tail wags the dog,they were better though never extremely efficient before but are far,far worse now.
There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of fear IMO though motorists,due to the way things have been let slide,have little fear of either being caught or the penalties if they are.
That's our problem.
Once that's rectified things will change,initially those caught will moan and cry,dare I say there'll be nashing of teeth,but once society realises the plusses of such efficiency things will settle down.


Careless driving needs to be punished at a level that is close to reckless driving - I hesitate to use the legal term 'dangerous driving', as that implies careless driving isn't dangerous. Most accidents can easily be prevented, so are not truly accidents. Careless driving is actually greater risk than reckless driving as it is a great deal more frequent occurence. The reason that drink driving levels dropped is not 'social stigma', rather it is drivers' fear of losing their license - which is a much greater incentive for most drivers than the fear that they might cause a collision. Also most prosecutions of 'careless' driving that I see reported in the media would seem to fit the legal definition for dangerous driving, but the CPS often opt for the lesser charge as a conviction is less unlikely.

merseymouth
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby merseymouth » 1 Oct 2019, 8:18am

Hello all, What is certainly needed is an acceptance that the standard of driving must be far higher than it currently is! Surely the idea of a DSA "Driving Test" is that we aim for a high level of competence, not just "Going Through the Motions".
We need a higher standard with regards to vision, if you do not have a high enough standard of vision then sorry no licence! Also I do believe that should mean that all current licence holders have to undergo a full sight test, carried out by properly controlled professionals. At the very least that should be repeated every 10 years, matching the renewal of the Photo Licence, which would be matched in the over 70 group. So when I renew after 3 years I should have to prove fitness, sounds fine to me.
We then need the courts & CPS to insist on being tougher on the all too common "Thoughtless Driving" that we all witness on a daily basis! Why allow obviously poor drivers to keep endangering us all, the same should also apply to the hard core of "Dangerous Drivers", the real horror story folk, often living the Daytona 500 driving experience every day, toughen up!
Then we really should get a grip on vehicles which are inappropriate for our congested roads, what need is there for so many high performance cars, the Hot Hatch toys of boy & girl racers should a thing of the past.
As I see it the authorities appear to be modifying roads to take more vehicles rather than controlling the unbridled upward number of cars!
"Smart Motorways" are clearly Stupid Motorways, with no safety & emergency provision! Anyone who knows anything about the nature of component failure on vehicles will shudder at the prospect of no Hard Shoulder, where does a car with tyre or suspension failure go? Even modern cars can suffer power issues, so the current obsession with "Smart Motorways" is the policy of the madhouse.
Our future is surely dependant on a far better integrated public transport system, rather than aspirational motors. TTFN MM

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Cugel
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby Cugel » 1 Oct 2019, 9:57am

Big problems with dire consequences, such as the car and its tremendous damages of every kind, need to be dealt with at the root. One root is human nature - but that isn't fixable, despite the belief of various religions and utopian ideologies. Another root cause is the technology; more accurately, the way the technology is manifested. It might be possible to fix that although it'll not be easy. Easier than fixing human nature though.

In Britain we ban free access and use of armaments except under very strict controls. If we didn't, we might have similar gun crime levels to those of Yankland, as we have many of their cultural attitudes here in Blighty. Knife crime, for example, would probably be replaced with gun crime. Suburban neighbourhood watchers might well become something rather more dangerous. Culturally, though, we have a saving tradition of fear & loathing for gun-toting nutters, so laws against widespread gun ownership and use are well-supported in Blighty.

How, then, to get laws (or rather, the actual employment of laws by the justice system) that will severely curtail the lethal use of motorised vehicles? I feel this is never going to be easy - perhaps impossible - because of the long history of privilege awarded to motoring. Banning cars or driving by the huge majority not fit to be let loose with a car (or a gun) would be immediate political death to any politician pursuing that as a solution.

So perhaps the solution is to not ban cars and drivers but to reduce the capacity and inclination of the technologies involved to maim and kill? In truth there are already attempts to do this, with self-driving cars and associated modes that wrest the control of the car from the dangerous human whilst also confining the cars behaviour to that already proposed by the existing traffic laws and conventions. Personally I would pursue that line, were I a politician concerned about the madness on the roads and all the other ills caused by the technology of motorised vehicles as currently designed, sold and used.

Speed and acceleration reductions built-in to all vehicles; car-borne technologies to enforce the rules of the road on drivers; auto penalties for poor driving behaviour, such as an auto shutdown of the engine when a traffic offense is committed, along with a call to the rozzers and tow truck ........

This doesn't ban cars but it does introduce controls of the type we feel appropriate for guns. Controls that already exist in part but aren't effectively implemented by the justice system. Put the controls in the car design and implement penalties for breaking them with embedded automated systems.

Cugel

merseymouth
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby merseymouth » 1 Oct 2019, 10:31am

Hi Cugel, Sound thinking mate! Only defect in that logic is the smarties who already create workarounds with technology, everything from electronically re-setting milometers on digital dash cars, through to "Up-Chipping" cars for more power, because they can they do!
Tamperproof systems will never exist, because it is always seen as a challenge.
Making cars "Idiot Proof" as well is a non starter, as they say it just reveals another variant of Idiot.
Maybe the route of better video on our roads would help, making the footage evidence quality, shift the burden of proof on to the offender not the prosecution? We've got too far in trusting folk to behave! MM

Icsunonove
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Re: Stop Killing our Children

Postby Icsunonove » 1 Oct 2019, 8:17pm

I think it would be a start if, instead of allowing persistent offenders to keep their licence by pleading exceptional hardship they should be made to drive one of these. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35210572 45km/h max.