Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 9:52am

Mick F wrote:How can you get to work or the shops without a car?
Bus?
Walk?

What if those methods aren't available?
What if there are no busses?
What happens if there's no alternative?
Perhaps we should all live in towns and cities where public transport is plentiful and cheap?

As for the fuel price escalator, why should I pay more for petrol for the lawnmower/brushcutter/chainsaw?

Mick
We the UK have a problem of overcrowding of private single or at most double occupant motors,it's a given that some people do need a car,but many don't and with the right public transport infrastructure the majority wouldn't.
It's the way transport has been structured in favour of the car that's now showing car use to have become a real problem and hinderance to efficent travel.
Building more and more roads has so far proved not to be the answer to a huge problem of both congestion both when cars are moving and when parked up and a cause of gross pollution where cars are used mostly where they needn't be with the correct infrastructure in place.
The truth of the matter is that private motors now contribute to the tax revenue so much(though not enough IMO)that the government are reluctant to change,but the real problem is cars are literally killing us,either slowly through pollution and illhealth and stress or quickly by RTI's
Last edited by reohn2 on 11 Nov 2019, 10:05am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ron
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby Ron » 11 Nov 2019, 10:01am

irc wrote: Neither new road is overloaded 40 or 50 years on.

The trunk roads are not overloaded but the traffic volume on them has increased considerably due to the ease of travel and the bypassed communities are again suffering congestion due to the proportion of the vastly increased trunk road traffic which diverts into them.

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Mick F
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby Mick F » 11 Nov 2019, 10:04am

Cugel wrote:However, your questions reveal that many (including you) cannot see beyond the status quo. Because you live in a world where the current default mode of transport is the private car you assume that its some sort of natural law or unchangeable aspect of reality. This is not so.
Yes it is so.

Shouldn't be, I'll agree, but it is so for vast stretches of these islands.

No busses, no trains.
Build more railways, put bus routes back. These two things would help ........ but you need to put the shops back too, and the schools and the hospitals.

If all those things were put in place, we wouldn't need a car.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Nov 2019, 10:13am

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:How can you get to work or the shops without a car?
Bus?
Walk?

I understand there's a sort of mechanical horse machine without an engine that's faster than walking which can get you to work or shops pretty efficiently and more sustainably. ;)

Do the mob you vote for plan to ban it from the roads like their predecessor UK IP?

Ceffyl haearn (Welsh: iron horse, cycle!)
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reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 10:30am

Mick F wrote:
Cugel wrote:However, your questions reveal that many (including you) cannot see beyond the status quo. Because you live in a world where the current default mode of transport is the private car you assume that its some sort of natural law or unchangeable aspect of reality. This is not so.
Yes it is so.

Shouldn't be, I'll agree, but it is so for vast stretches of these islands.

No busses, no trains.
Build more railways, put bus routes back. These two things would help ........ but you need to put the shops back too, and the schools and the hospitals.

If all those things were put in place, we wouldn't need a car.

And carrying on the way the UK has operated in the past only makes that situation worse.Time for a change of attitude to travel perhaps?
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reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 10:39am

Just spotted this post on another thread:-
Mick F wrote:Why are busses so big?
The ones round here rarely have more than half a dozen passengers.

Back when I was commuting by bike to Devonport, the No76 bus would come past me followed by up to thirty cars. The bus, more often than not, had no-one on board other than the driver.

Empty bus clogging up the roads and holding up thirty cars with the occupants all trying to get to work! :evil:
Don't tell me that they should have been on the bus, because it didn't go from where people lived to where they were going to work.

Complete waste of time and money, and road space too.


Err,spot the problem :?
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horizon
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby horizon » 11 Nov 2019, 12:46pm

Mick F wrote:How can you get to work or the shops without a car?


Mick F: I think you might be stringing us along here ( :lol: ) but it's good these questions are asked as it is what the ordinary man or woman in the street (in their car) would ask. What we on here believe is patently obvious and self-evident (people need to use their cars less) is neither obvious nor agreeable to the great majority (who will be voting on December 12th).
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

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Mick F
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby Mick F » 11 Nov 2019, 1:31pm

reohn2 wrote:Just spotted this post on another thread:-
Mick F wrote:Why are busses so big?
The ones round here rarely have more than half a dozen passengers.

Back when I was commuting by bike to Devonport, the No76 bus would come past me followed by up to thirty cars. The bus, more often than not, had no-one on board other than the driver.

Empty bus clogging up the roads and holding up thirty cars with the occupants all trying to get to work! :evil:
Don't tell me that they should have been on the bus, because it didn't go from where people lived to where they were going to work.

Complete waste of time and money, and road space too.


Err,spot the problem :?
The problem is that the busses don't run from where people live to where people work ...... like I said.
Make smaller busses, frequent too, and go everywhere all the time. Make them cheap, make them plentiful, and people will use them.

We went into Tavistock for a spot of shopping this morning including Lidl's out on the Plymouth road.
Left home half past ten, and were home by noon.

Should have gone by public transport?
Walk half an hour to the bus stop for a twenty minute ride into town. Walk half a mile to the bank and the other shops, then half a mile back to get the next bus out to Lidl's. Maybe another hour before the next bus back to town, then wait for another bus back to Gunnislake, then half hour walk back home.

Completely impractical.

What we need, is all the shops back in the village.
There's used to be three grocers, a paper shop with stationery, a Co-op, hardware shop, fruit and veg shop ......... and that's what we can remember and we've only been here 35years. All we have left is a butcher, and post office and a Premier Stores. There's a street in the village called Commercial Street. There's only a hairdresser there now and a small cafe.

Go back well before our time and the village was a thriving place with shops and businesses on every corner.
Those days are gone, and never to return.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 1:43pm

Mick F wrote:.........The problem is that the busses don't run from where people live to where people work ...... like I said.
Make smaller busses, frequent too, and go everywhere all the time. Make them cheap, make them plentiful, and people will use them....

We seem to be in agreement.
Your complaints are similar to mine in that public transport isn't fit for purpose.
In your neck of the woods I suspect PT will never really meet the needs of the majority due to area where you live.However PT could work better from say an arterial route,with a car park attached into town,a mini park and ride if you like.
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Cugel
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby Cugel » 11 Nov 2019, 1:59pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:.........The problem is that the busses don't run from where people live to where people work ...... like I said.
Make smaller busses, frequent too, and go everywhere all the time. Make them cheap, make them plentiful, and people will use them....

We seem to be in agreement.
Your complaints are similar to mine in that public transport isn't fit for purpose.
In your neck of the woods I suspect PT will never really meet the needs of the majority due to area where you live.However PT could work better from say an arterial route,with a car park attached into town,a mini park and ride if you like.


When I was a lad - and up until the end the 1960s - most towns had bus services (both council and private) that served nearly every street as well as going out to, and around, the outlying villages. One could get a bus from nearly anywhere to anywhere else. Sometimes, but not often, a change from one bus to another would be required. The buses were frequent and well-used because they did do the journeys useful to workers, shoppers and all sorts of other travellers.

The services were often subsidised - private as well as council. They were regarded as part of the necessary infrastructure like the roads themselves - paid for by all for the use of all even if we did have a low fare to pay too.

Gradually the accountants and then the neolibs eradicated the notion of public transport as an infrastructure service. Instead it became a business, the primary motive of which was to make money. Passengers became mere customers - who must have ever-increasing amounts of cash extracted from them for the privilege. "Non-economic" (meaning unprofitable) services were expunged. Main route bus services only, many of which became the scene of bus-jousting, as rival private companies tried to gain ascendancy. Public transport faded and, in many places, died.

Strangeley, some areas retain a degree of public transport as paid-for-by-all infrastructure. London comes to mind. These places still have fares, often now stupidly expensive. But they're also subsidised. Now the subsidy is more about ensuring profits for the shareholders and director fatcats than about providing a high quality and inexpensive public service to all.

*****
There's nothing to stop a government first arranging propaganda in favour of a return to public transport as a pervasive and subsidised public infrastructure; then commissioning it when the public has changed "its" mind. Well, nothing but current vested interests, neolib ideology and the ownership of politicians by the greedymen.

Cugel

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horizon
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby horizon » 11 Nov 2019, 2:06pm

Just to say to everyone that as soon as car travel is properly priced, people will make their own choices and find their own solutions, whether that's bike, bus, car, foot or just not going. If we make it as easy and cheap as possible to go by car, they will go by car.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 2:11pm

Cuggers
I can't argue with any of that :)
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reohn2
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Nov 2019, 2:17pm

horizon wrote:Just to say to everyone that as soon as car travel is properly priced, people will make their own choices and find their own solutions, whether that's bike, bus, car, foot or just not going. If we make it as easy and cheap as possible to go by car, they will go by car.

Personally I think there needs to be a physical rather than a monetary barrier to car use in certain areas with a good public transport option available.
The problem with a monetary barrier is that those who can will afford to run a car where society doesn't want the pollution and congestion.It also prices out those who can't afford the extra car costs.
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby MikeF » 11 Nov 2019, 2:18pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:How can you get to work or the shops without a car?
Bus?
Walk?

What if those methods aren't available?
What if there are no busses?
What happens if there's no alternative?
Perhaps we should all live in towns and cities where public transport is plentiful and cheap?

As for the fuel price escalator, why should I pay more for petrol for the lawnmower/brushcutter/chainsaw?

Mick
We the UK have a problem of overcrowding of private single or at most double occupant motors,it's a given that some people do need a car,but many don't and with the right public transport infrastructure the majority wouldn't.
It's the way transport has been structured in favour of the car that's now showing car use to have become a real problem and hinderance to efficent travel.
Building more and more roads has so far proved not to be the answer to a huge problem of both congestion both when cars are moving and when parked up and a cause of gross pollution where cars are used mostly where they needn't be with the correct infrastructure in place.
The truth of the matter is that private motors now contribute to the tax revenue so much(though not enough IMO)that the government are reluctant to change,but the real problem is cars are literally killing us,either slowly through pollution and illhealth and stress or quickly by RTI's

Indeed. Around here a huge number of houses are being or planned to be built, but the only means of transport really being considered is the motor car in spite of councils publicising all the benefits of walking and cycling. Apparently there is never enough money to do that, but plenty to spend on motor transport.
People will always justify why they have to use the car. In some cases they do, but in many cases they don't. Most people drive to a park run for example or have to take their children to the gates of the school even when that road is a no through road. Apparently children nowadays are unable to walk from say the end of the nearest road. It's always excuses, excuses and more excuses why things can't change. It's now reaching the stage where finding places to park cars is becoming a major problem. Even pavements are now blocked with cars. Nice new tarmac and just made for a small car, but not quite big enough for a larger one.
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Postby irc » 11 Nov 2019, 2:25pm

Ron wrote:
irc wrote: Neither new road is overloaded 40 or 50 years on.

The trunk roads are not overloaded but the traffic volume on them has increased considerably due to the ease of travel and the bypassed communities are again suffering congestion due to the proportion of the vastly increased trunk road traffic which diverts into them.


Just not true. The towns and villages bypassed by both roads are not congested. The biggest town concerned is probably Hamilton. My last job involved sometimes driving to and from the centre of Hamilton at peak times. It wasn't congested to the point traffic flow was affected.

When the M74 or the A9 is closed for a major accident that is when you see congestion.