Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Mike Sales
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mike Sales »

The main point to start off with is that the report is based on a form of economics which is highly conventional – cost-benefit analysis (CBA). CBA has been relentlessly criticised for the inhumanity of its basic principles, most forcefully by John Adams, for example in “Transport Planning: Vision and Practice”, which you can download here – and from which the sub-heading above* comes
Essentially, the adverse effects of motorisation are monetised – which means that you have to put a money value on these adverse effects: pollution – noise, noxious and greenhouse gas emissions, “accidents” etc. This involves asking people (which people – ones with a lot of or a little money?) how much they would be willing to pay for people (which people – their loved ones or strangers?) not to be hurt in road crashes, poisoned by pollution etc.


One of the key items counted is what is known as “accidents”. Now, as those familiar with the principles of Road Danger Reduction know, you cannot measure danger by adding up the numbers of people reported as hurt or killed on the road. It is immoral to equate, for example, someone falling off a bicycle and hurting themselves with someone hurt by the rule or law breaking of another. It is frequently the case that locations which present significant dangers – particularly to pedestrians and cyclists – have low numbers of people hurt or killed, often precisely because the danger there has scared them away from being there in the first place.
Instead, how about putting a cost on danger? We could be looking at the effects of limiting the use of the more benign modes. After all, we know a lot about the restriction on the independent mobility of children by motor traffic danger: see “One False Move… A Study of Children’s Independent Mobility” downloadable here . It is possible to add up monetary costs of parent’s time spent driving to school and add that to the costs of car use, if that’s what you want to do. CBA counts the cost of a white collar worker at around £20 per hour: think of all those middle class parents driving children to and from school and how much that cost would add up to. But that is not counted in this report.


Motoring taxation
One item which gets missed out is motoring taxation. This is interesting. The report’s authors argue that motoring taxation is just one of many forms of taxation, and should not be seen as something to be set against the costs of motoring costs. It is an excellent point to make.
The analogy they draw is with taxation on alcohol, saying that there is no reason that it should be used to offset the costs of alcohol to society. The next time a motorist grumbles that the taxes they pay should go on road building or be considered against the costs of car-generated pollution, crashes, global warming etc., do bring in the alcohol analogy. Why shouldn’t the tax I pay on a pint of beer be reserved towards paying for the treatment of alcoholics? Or making pubs nicer? Or helping pubs to stay open? That makes as much, if not more, sense.
Anyway, the amount of taxation raised by UK motorists – fuel duty and its associated VAT along with vehicle excise duty contribute around £38bn a year – is £10 billion less than the £48 billion estimated by the report’s authors to be the external costs of motoring.


What is wrong with this report?
Despite the predictable response from the motoring lobby (see the one by Edmund King of the AA here) it is actually quite pro-motoring. Consider the following from the report:
“The results of this study advocate that the European Union should embark as soon as possible on a process that estimates external costs regularly and develops a smooth integration path of these costs into transport prices: Slowly and steadily, designed well in advance of implementation, with accompanying measures to support adaptation. Let it be remembered that there is no intention of creating additional revenue from transport users: the intention is to give price signals so that everybody adapts and hopefully nobody has to pay these prices. Then, all costs would be reduced, efficiency would be increased”.(my emphasis)
In one sense this is correct: hopefully “internalising the external costs” as economists put it, would result in a modal shift from car use, or shortening car journeys, or driving more fuel-efficiently, or a combination of the above. But let’s consider this in more detail: what would happen if – no doubt to the horror of the AA, petrol prices were to actually double?


https://rdrf.org.uk/2012/12/31/the-true-costs-of-automobility-external-costs-of-cars/

I am quoting from Bob Davis's reaction to this report to show that there is quite another way of looking at it.
You are a cyclist. Your rides are made more dangerous, less healthy and pleasant, by motors. These are real costs, though never monetised. This does not mean that they don't exist, does it? The impacts of motoring on cyclists, to take one example, are real and borne not by those who benefit from motoring, but by us.
How should we monetise them? How much are you willing to accept as recompense for a road environment which many find too unpleasant to cycle on? For myself, it would be quite a lot of money. Why should I be content to put up with this public nuisance for nothing?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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Mick F
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mick F »

Mick F wrote:
Cugel wrote:However, your questions reveal that many (including you) cannot see beyond the status quo. Because you live in a world where the current default mode of transport is the private car you assume that its some sort of natural law or unchangeable aspect of reality. This is not so.
Yes it is so.

Shouldn't be, I'll agree, but it is so for vast stretches of these islands.

No busses, no trains.
Build more railways, put bus routes back. These two things would help ........ but you need to put the shops back too, and the schools and the hospitals.

If all those things were put in place, we wouldn't need a car.
I drove up the hill yesterday to deliver Mrs Mick F to the train to take her to Plymouth for a spot of shopping.
She came back on the 14:54 arriving at Gunnislake Station at 15:40, and I drove up the hill to meet her.
As I arrived - about five or ten minutes before the train arrived - the bus stopped outside the station entrance, and then drove off.

Why can't busses and trains dovetail their timetables and wait for each other?
What about an integrated transport system?
Mick F. Cornwall
Mike Sales
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mike Sales »

Mick F wrote:Why can't busses and trains dovetail their timetables and wait for each other?
What about an integrated transport system?


Yes. I've been using buses quite a lot lately, and would ask why buses can't dovetail their timetables with other buses?
Also, shelters are sparse and give vestigial shelter when they do exist. Their seats seem designed to be uncomfortable.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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Cugel
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Cugel »

Mick F wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Cugel wrote:However, your questions reveal that many (including you) cannot see beyond the status quo. Because you live in a world where the current default mode of transport is the private car you assume that its some sort of natural law or unchangeable aspect of reality. This is not so.
Yes it is so.

Shouldn't be, I'll agree, but it is so for vast stretches of these islands.

No busses, no trains.
Build more railways, put bus routes back. These two things would help ........ but you need to put the shops back too, and the schools and the hospitals.

If all those things were put in place, we wouldn't need a car.
I drove up the hill yesterday to deliver Mrs Mick F to the train to take her to Plymouth for a spot of shopping.
She came back on the 14:54 arriving at Gunnislake Station at 15:40, and I drove up the hill to meet her.
As I arrived - about five or ten minutes before the train arrived - the bus stopped outside the station entrance, and then drove off.

Why can't busses and trains dovetail their timetables and wait for each other?
What about an integrated transport system?


The T1 bus that goes past wor hoose to and from Aberystwyth - Carmarthen does so to coincide with the rail services at Carmarthen (and probably at Aberystwyth). One gets off the bus and steps 10 yards on to the train; or vice-versa. The bus timetable has been coordinated with the train timetable, with about 10 minutes leeway built-in in case one or the other is late.

It's possible to do this as the buses and trains can be dictated to by the Welsh governmental authorities. (I'm not sure which arm does the dictating). The default in England seems to be that privatised services do whatever they want, for their convenience not that of their "customers".

I suspect that the buses at least are subsided by the Welsh government (fares are cheap and zero to all at weekends). I heard a rumour that the trains too are in some way "owned" or controlled by the government. The Welsh are canny and have retained that fine tradition of public transport as infrastructure for all, rather than as some sort of shareholder/CEO means to milk money for doing nothing badly.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Charging for parking at night on residential streets: in a small way and to a very limited extent this already happens, by means of RPZs. (Residents Parking Zones)
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

irc wrote:


That nonsense again. Firstly, it counts noise as a cost. Nobody pays for noise.

Constant noise has been shown to be a factor in both physical and mental health. So yes, we pay for it in our health and financially through the NHS, costs to employers in staff sickness, reduced mental acuity, ingenuity and concentration, and the like.
irc
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by irc »

Bmblbzzz wrote:
irc wrote:


That nonsense again. Firstly, it counts noise as a cost. Nobody pays for noise.

Constant noise has been shown to be a factor in both physical and mental health. So yes, we pay for it in our health and financially through the NHS, costs to employers in staff sickness, reduced mental acuity, ingenuity and concentration, and the like.


No studies quoted? I used to live 40 yards off a major road in Glasgow. Great Western Road near George's X. Noise was not an issue. The only noise I ever noticed was buses pulling away from the lights. So in fact in that case public transport was the problem not the solution.
Just like the most polluted street in Glasgow is almost all buses and taxis.
Mike Sales
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mike Sales »

irc wrote:The article also mentions the cost of lack of exercise though strangely this along with noise is never counted as a cost for buses and trains.


Public transport passengers get a fair amount of exercise. This is one of the reasons motorists prefer to use their cars.
Train noise is confined in area and intermittent, as is bus noise to a lesser extent. Motor noise is almost all pervasive and almost constant in contrast. So much so that it can be subliminal, but this does not mean it has no health effects. I expect Bmblbzzz's studies will confirm this.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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Cugel
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Cugel »

Bmblbzzz wrote:
irc wrote:


That nonsense again. Firstly, it counts noise as a cost. Nobody pays for noise.

Constant noise has been shown to be a factor in both physical and mental health. So yes, we pay for it in our health and financially through the NHS, costs to employers in staff sickness, reduced mental acuity, ingenuity and concentration, and the like.


Irc is not irked by noise therefore no one can be. :-)

Even though many of us recognise that not all costs can be expressed as ten poond notes, we still default to the accountant's preferred mode of "monetising" all costs. Personally I'm not interested in reducing irksome noise or other degradations to the quality of life down into a pocketful of jingling cash. The currency of interest is "quality of life". In what does that currency express? Freedom from harms imposed to serve the greedy pleasure or profit-seeking of others. Receipt of genuinely beneficial improvements to daily existence for all.

How to include such non-monetary costs (and, similarly, non-monetary benefits) in the calculation of the overall cost/benefits due to some alleged "convenient" technology or "service"? That's not an easy question to answer. For example, many feel that a car gives them a large beneficial boost to their quality of life, ignoring the costs of their withering legs, bloating waistline, asthma-ridden children and the maimed or murdered bodies by the side of the road.

What's required is a disinterested accountant who can calculate in currencies additional to them ten poond notes. I would nominate Clement Attlee but he's busy spinning in his grave.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Mick F
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mick F »

Mike Sales wrote:Also, shelters are sparse and give vestigial shelter when they do exist. Their seats seem designed to be uncomfortable.
They are purposefully designed like that.

It stops the homeless moving in and sleeping there.
Sad, but true.
Mick F. Cornwall
Mike Sales
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Mike Sales »

Mick F wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Also, shelters are sparse and give vestigial shelter when they do exist. Their seats seem designed to be uncomfortable.
They are purposefully designed like that.

It stops the homeless moving in and sleeping there.
Sad, but true.


I suspect also to discourage teenagers gathering there and being raucous.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by pwa »

Mick F wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Also, shelters are sparse and give vestigial shelter when they do exist. Their seats seem designed to be uncomfortable.
They are purposefully designed like that.

It stops the homeless moving in and sleeping there.
Sad, but true.


I used to install benches and picnic tables/benches alongside shared use tracks as part of my job and one issue that we had was that wherever you put seating you get gatherings of youths drinking cheap alcohol. I believe the same concern exist with bus shelters. If you make them too comfy you create a potential for antisocial gatherings with the litter, noise and other problems associated with that. I am pretty sure that influences shelter design more than concerns about the homeless.
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Cugel wrote:The currency of interest is "quality of life".
Cugel

Definitely.
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Re: Can we finally agree that building roads increases congestion?

Post by fullupandslowingdown »

I'm not so sure either. Maye we're confused by cause and effect. Maybe the increase in usage is simply because of the increase in people 'needing' to drive somewhere. As any engineer will tell you, it doesn't actually matter how wide a conduit you make if the flow is throttled by interconnections. Conventional traffic lights at a cross roads will always limit flow. Many modern road widening schemes still lead to a junction with lower capacity. I hate to say it, but the only way is to pave over 73% of land to build flyovers etc so you can leave your front door and get to the paper shop without stopping at or even passing through any junction. imho people won't stop using their cars just because they are stuck in endless queues, people are too stubborn, too fixed in their ways, and struggle to see alternatives such as getting a job within walking distance, and reading a newspaper online.
Just wait until we have private/private hire individual flying machines for all, then the skies will become congested too. Completely stop procreating and traffic jams will reduce by 2169 :shock:
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