Using ANPR to deny fuel to uninsured/untaxed vehicles

[mjr]

Refusal to answer your question - oh dear.
You may well be of a naturally authoritarian bent but that doesn't mean you can require anyone to answer your questions here or anywhere else.

I'm naturally anarchic but note that I don't require anyone to answer my questions - but despite your attempts to distract, I just highlight that your argument that using ANPR to detect use of unlawful vehicles would lead to totalitarian government is so weak that you are unwilling to answer questions about it.

I didn't say it would lead to totalitarian government. What I said was the desire of some to get private individuals and companies to inform on their fellow citizens indicates a totalitarian government would quite easily be able to get some people to do the the same.

However you try to spin it, it's still a false equivalence and a week argument. I'm surprised that any cyclist would equate those wanting uninsured/untaxed motor vehicles removed from the roads with those willing to inform a totalitarian government.

[pete75]

I'm naturally anarchic but note that I don't require anyone to answer my questions - but despite your attempts to distract, I just highlight that your argument that using ANPR to detect use of unlawful vehicles would lead to totalitarian government is so weak that you are unwilling to answer questions about it.

I didn't say it would lead to totalitarian government. What I said was the desire of some to get private individuals and companies to inform on their fellow citizens indicates a totalitarian government would quite easily be able to get some people to do the the same.

However you try to spin it, it's still a false equivalence and a week argument. I'm surprised that any cyclist would equate those wanting uninsured/untaxed motor vehicles removed from the roads with those willing to inform a totalitarian government.

Hardly a week argument - this threads only be going a couple of days.

In my opinion the sort of person who wants to report someone to the authorities for a minor administrative offence like no road tax or no insurance would likely report on people for whatever a government wanted them to.
In any case how do you know they have no tax or insurance? You have no access to the tax database and to report them for no insurance you'd have to be sure the MID (Motor Insurers Database) is 100% accurate, which it isn't, and also commit an offence yourself.
The ask Mid enquiry section states
" It is either registered/ owned/ insured by me or my employer; I am permitted to drive it; I am an Insurance Broker or agent and acting on behalf of my client."
This is followed by "I understand it is an offence to wrongfully obtain information of this nature without any of the above reasonable causes. If I fail to provide true reasons for acquiring this information I may be committing an offence of unlawfully obtaining data contrary to section 170 of the Data Protection Act 2018. I declare that the information provided will not be used for any purposes unrelated to this enquiry."

[Darkman]

With the growing popularity of electric powered vehicles it'll be much easier in the future to deny fuel to uninsured/untaxed/stolen/whatever vehicles - authentication could be instant. Could even implement something to completely disable the car so it can't move, and alert the authorities.

I don't think it's totalitarian. Criminals are always coming up with ingenious new ways to beat the system, so the system has to keep up with that.

But for now, would you want your wife/daughter/partner/whatever, working the night shift alone in a petrol station, denying fuel to customers and having to deal with the consequences there and then? I wouldn't. ANPR at petrol stations doesn't seem like the answer, especially as many of the people it might be interested in will be driving around on cloned/false plates anyway.

[Cunobelin]

When my brother worked in Garages in what is now Cambridgeshire (early 80's), they used to have a problem with Travellers, who would drive off without paying. A network of local garages was set up and a record kept. Garages would then inform a driver - "You drove off from Cottenham on 23rd March, once that bill is paid, we will serve you"

Three things happened...
1. They would come back mob-handed to get the fuel - in one case a full convoy of half a dozen vans whilst the attendant was blocked in the "cubicle"
2. They would come back with false plates to avoid the "List"
3. They would clone local cars so that it was locals being inconvenienced and unable to get fuel

In a few cases, the system worked, but it escalated quickly

In the Wisbech area by any chance?

Near Ely and Cambridge

[Cunobelin]

Do you also see speed and red light cameras as totalitarian government?

I would object to Shell or BP running them

Ok, do you object to police acting on evidence from privately-run bike/dash cameras?

I would object to Shell and BP doing so, I have no problem with the Police doing so

[Bmblbzzz]

When my brother worked in Garages in what is now Cambridgeshire (early 80's), they used to have a problem with Travellers, who would drive off without paying. A network of local garages was set up and a record kept. Garages would then inform a driver - "You drove off from Cottenham on 23rd March, once that bill is paid, we will serve you"

Three things happened...
1. They would come back mob-handed to get the fuel - in one case a full convoy of half a dozen vans whilst the attendant was blocked in the "cubicle"
2. They would come back with false plates to avoid the "List"
3. They would clone local cars so that it was locals being inconvenienced and unable to get fuel

In a few cases, the system worked, but it escalated quickly

In the Wisbech area by any chance?

Near Ely and Cambridge

These two are ridiculously easy to do with UK plates due to the total absence of security features.

[mattsccm]

Surely any cameras on private property or beyond any reasonable objection? After all you will be there by choice.
Surely, as well, that there cannot be any objection to anyone grassing some one to the law? In deed surely it should be encouraged.
Finally I would see all motoring as a privilege not a right and as such all efforts possible should be made to ensure that this privilege is not abused.

[fullupandslowingdown]

We do all appreciate that there is the police ANPR system which is linked to dvla, insurance database and the police national computer so they can pull over wanted suspects too. And then there are private anpr systems which use computer connected cctv to detect and record a number plate and use that for the business's stated purposes subject to the data protection laws i.e GDPR.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just use the latest pumps which require you to put your card in first or some allow apple pay too. Then someone pays for the fuel before driving off.
As more speed cameras are changed to average speed over distance systems, and these are connected to ANPR, then eventually there won't be many places to drive an uninsured/taxed vehicle without detection. Though perhaps a thousand of these promised new ecilops could be plain clothes traffic cops.
P.S I've only been pulled over once and that was for being uninsured. Except I wasn't, the policy details hadn't filtered through in 24 hours. I got to drive on, having such an honest face

[Bmblbzzz]

Detecting an uninsured/untaxed/un-moted/unregistered vehicle is only the first part of enforcement.

[pete75]

We do all appreciate that there is the police ANPR system which is linked to dvla, insurance database and the police national computer so they can pull over wanted suspects too. And then there are private anpr systems which use computer connected cctv to detect and record a number plate and use that for the business's stated purposes subject to the data protection laws i.e GDPR.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just use the latest pumps which require you to put your card in first or some allow apple pay too. Then someone pays for the fuel before driving off.
As more speed cameras are changed to average speed over distance systems, and these are connected to ANPR, then eventually there won't be many places to drive an uninsured/taxed vehicle without detection. Though perhaps a thousand of these promised new ecilops could be plain clothes traffic cops.
P.S I've only been pulled over once and that was for being uninsured. Except I wasn't, the policy details hadn't filtered through in 24 hours. I got to drive on, having such an honest face

The law allows seven days to produce your insurance, MOT and driving licence.

From https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q648.htm. The website describes itself as The official police resource for England and Wales - note the last sentence.

"It is an offence not to produce your driving licence, certificate of insurance and MOT certificate when requested to do so by a police officer. However the usual action is that the police officer will issue a HO/RT1/ (called a 'producer') requiring you to produce the documents at a police station of your choice within 7 days. If this is done and they are in order, then that is the end of the matter.

You will be reported for failing to produce the documents at the time of the request for production (so that extra time is not spent re-visiting you at home if you do not produce). If you fail to produce the documents within the 7 day period or they are not in order, you will be summonsed to attend court.

From a crime prevention point of view it is better never to leave your driving documents in your car and produce them within the 7 day period."

[TrevA]

Reminds me of Smiley Culture - “Police Office, don’t give me no Producer”

https://youtu.be/PCPQZ1Le6dg

[The utility cyclist]

Pop up barriers at exit and entrance would be my solution, I'd also go with paying in cash/card up front before fuelling, with the pump simply stopping after the pre-paid amount you want to spend has been dispensed or taking the amount from the vehicle if card approved, can never understand why this isn't employed here as it is in other countries!
The costs of chasing offenders as well as actually getting a prosecution AFTER they have exited is to mind part of the problem. My son used to work at a BP/M&S as a deputy manager, had a fair few drive-offs, at least on a weekly basis, prosecutions were low and very time laborious going by what the police were telling him.

[The utility cyclist]

We do all appreciate that there is the police ANPR system which is linked to dvla, insurance database and the police national computer so they can pull over wanted suspects too. And then there are private anpr systems which use computer connected cctv to detect and record a number plate and use that for the business's stated purposes subject to the data protection laws i.e GDPR.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just use the latest pumps which require you to put your card in first or some allow apple pay too. Then someone pays for the fuel before driving off.
As more speed cameras are changed to average speed over distance systems, and these are connected to ANPR, then eventually there won't be many places to drive an uninsured/taxed vehicle without detection. Though perhaps a thousand of these promised new ecilops could be plain clothes traffic cops.
P.S I've only been pulled over once and that was for being uninsured. Except I wasn't, the policy details hadn't filtered through in 24 hours. I got to drive on, having such an honest face

The law allows seven days to produce your insurance, MOT and driving licence.

From https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q648.htm. The website describes itself as The official police resource for England and Wales - note the last sentence.

"It is an offence not to produce your driving licence, certificate of insurance and MOT certificate when requested to do so by a police officer. However the usual action is that the police officer will issue a HO/RT1/ (called a 'producer') requiring you to produce the documents at a police station of your choice within 7 days. If this is done and they are in order, then that is the end of the matter.

You will be reported for failing to produce the documents at the time of the request for production (so that extra time is not spent re-visiting you at home if you do not produce). If you fail to produce the documents within the 7 day period or they are not in order, you will be summonsed to attend court.

From a crime prevention point of view it is better never to leave your driving documents in your car and produce them within the 7 day period."

I was threatened with arrest a couple of years back by some divvy when he concocted some BS about my driving and I'd told him that I didn't have my license on me nor any ID. He even stated that it was in the RTA that he could arrest me I'd asked him to quote which part of the Act it was but he wouldn't, I asked him to produce the video footage of his lies, sorry alleged driving, but despite they having it they wouldn't (It was a atrol car so I knew they had the events recorded).
It would have proven that it was his driving that was below the standard expected I was tempted to ring 999 and say that there were two people impersonating the police but I think that would have wound up the idiot even more after I'd told him I wasn't going to give him any of my details as I'd not done anything wrong nor did he have any reasonable suspicion I'd done anything wrong, he also falsely accused me of drink-driving too saying my eyes were red - another lie but anything to inconvenience me more.

They eventually drove off with their tails between their legs, no producer, but the big baby who was giving it the BS, drove at 5 mph in front of me deliberately obstructing me (for about 300 yards), absolute @@@@-hole! And they wonder why the respect for police is at an all time low!

[tim-b]

Hi

Pop up barriers at exit and entrance would be my solution

Which is fine until they break/are popped up when a fire breaks out on the forecourt and/or the electricity master switch is pulled/someone abandons their steering-locked uninsured/untaxed/un-MoTd shed at the barrier when they can't exit, etc
Pay in advance is so much simpler (on verification of correct documentation if that's what people want)
Regards
tim-b

[mattsccm]

How do you fill up with cash then?