Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Jan 2020, 7:39am

There was a group of travellers who parked up in a car park less than half a mile from me. They went for years for several weeks at a time and caused no trouble. There were bins and toilets.

Then there was a theft nearby. Without any evidence the travellers were blamed by someone. The story gained momentum. The travellers moved on.

The next year they turned up: The council closed the toilets and removed the refuse bins. Then when there was some mess people complained. They were evicted.

There is a permanent camp in Berwick which has been there for years. The children go to local schools and people go to churches. When members die local churches hold the funerals.
John

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby pete75 » 18 Jan 2020, 8:09am

Eric the Red wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:What can't be denied is that, most unusually if not uniquely, the party manifesto mentioned a target group by name : travellers.

"First they came for the Communists.........m"

They may not be a problem in Northumberland, but in South Essex.

Illegal occupation of council/private land.
Criminal damage to gain such access.
Flytipping on an industrial scale.
Intimidation and violence towards locals/police.
Fleecing vulnerable people with shoddy gardening/tarmacking etc.
Illegal horse racing on major roads.
Untaxed/uninsured vehicles.
Non-payment of council tax.
Non attendance at school.
Exceding plot quotas on legal sites.
Theft.
Etc.
Etc.
Many of them have houses in Ireland to return to in the winter, but find the 'pickings' here to be profitable - and the police/council can't/won't face up to them.


So they fit in well with the locals in South Essex. Integration is meant to be a good thing. :lol:

Oldjohnw
Posts: 2874
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Jan 2020, 9:08am

pete75 wrote:
Eric the Red wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:What can't be denied is that, most unusually if not uniquely, the party manifesto mentioned a target group by name : travellers.

"First they came for the Communists.........m"

They may not be a problem in Northumberland, but in South Essex.

Illegal occupation of council/private land.
Criminal damage to gain such access.
Flytipping on an industrial scale.
Intimidation and violence towards locals/police.
Fleecing vulnerable people with shoddy gardening/tarmacking etc.
Illegal horse racing on major roads.
Untaxed/uninsured vehicles.
Non-payment of council tax.
Non attendance at school.
Exceding plot quotas on legal sites.
Theft.
Etc.
Etc.
Many of them have houses in Ireland to return to in the winter, but find the 'pickings' here to be profitable - and the police/council can't/won't face up to them.


So they fit in well with the locals in South Essex. Integration is meant to be a good thing. :lol:


There is plenty of law to deal with all of the above. If the police can't/won't prosecute now I don't see how even more legislation will work.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 20 Jan 2020, 10:17am, edited 1 time in total.
John

PH
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Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby PH » 20 Jan 2020, 9:20am

Oldjohnw wrote:There is plenty of law to deal with all of the above. Of the police can't/won't prosecute now I don't see how even more legislation will work.

I read, sorry haven't time to search a link, that 75% of Police Forces don't want even the current proposed amendments.
What they want of course is to be properly resourced.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 2874
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Jan 2020, 10:21am

PH wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:There is plenty of law to deal with all of the above. Of the police can't/won't prosecute now I don't see how even more legislation will work.

I read, sorry haven't time to search a link, that 75% of Police Forces don't want even the current proposed amendments.
What they want of course is to be properly resourced.


Correct. It is just Mr Johnson playing for the law and order vote. It ultimately is meaningless. Knife crime gets ever more severe sentencing but it continues to rise. Doing more of the same and hoping for a different result is futile. At last many police forces are trying to divert rather than prosecute.
John

Vorpal
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Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Vorpal » 20 Jan 2020, 10:54am

Eric the Red wrote:
Illegal occupation of council/private land.

Or land that they bought, for which the council refused planning permission as traveller site, because of NIMBYs
Eric the Red wrote:Criminal damage to gain such access.

AKA Creating an impropmtu driveway.
Eric the Red wrote:Flytipping on an industrial scale.

Maybe because they had no waste removal and the council were charging industrial fees to take things to the tip?
Eric the Red wrote:Intimidation and violence towards locals/police.

The travellers I was acquainted with were decent to me. But I didn't call them pikeys or assume they were going to rip me off, either. Maybe, just maybe, the hostility grew out of how they were treated.
Eric the Red wrote:Fleecing vulnerable people with shoddy gardening/tarmacking etc.
There are plenty of folks out there doing shoddy work, and Travellers who do honest work. There are ways to deal with folks who do shoddy work, but half the problem is people willing to pay cash to avoid paying taxes. Shoddy work, in any case, has nothing to do with trespassing.
Eric the Red wrote:Illegal horse racing on major roads.

I won't condone the horse racing, but despite a couple of high profile incidents, it's not half so dangerous or risky as illegal car racing (which plenty of middle class Essex youth engage in)
Eric the Red wrote:Untaxed/uninsured vehicles.
They figure there are around 1 million uninsured vehicles on Britain's road and 700 000 untaxed It is practically socially acceptable. I don't see how that says anything at all about Travellers or trespassing, and there are furthermore ways to deal with that with existing laws.
Eric the Red wrote:Non-payment of council tax.

To a council that won't approve their planning application, collect their waste, or provide water and sewage?
Eric the Red wrote:Non attendance at school.
There are all sort of reasons for this, but needless to say, councils and schools that work with the Traveller community, prevent bullying, and support Traveller children who need extra help, have good attendance at school.
Eric the Red wrote:Exceding plot quotas on legal sites.

Oh let's see.... There are somewhere between 2600 and 3000 Travellers and Roma folk in Essex, and around 900 plots on 300 sites in Essex. They get kicked off every site that they try to establish. They get kicked off official sites because they are over capacity. People elect council members based on promises to keep Travellers out. What are they actually supposed to do? Where are they supposed to live?
Eric the Red wrote:Theft.
Etc.
Etc.
You have no evidence for this. That Travellers & Roma folk are overrepresented in the prison population, like with blacks and other ethnic minorities is down to being targetted in investigations and policing bias, rather than higher offending rates.

I knew someone who had their house broken into in rural Essex. It was a couple of miles from a Traveller site, and all the locals said the Travellers did it. Do you know what the police said? That there was a group of criminals in Colchester that targetted houses that did not have near neighbours, but were located around Traveller sites (knowing that Travellers would be blamed). I told that to a neighbour, and he didn't believe me. He *insisted* that it was Travellers that did it.
Eric the Red wrote:Many of them have houses in Ireland to return to in the winter, but find the 'pickings' here to be profitable - and the police/council can't/won't face up to them.


The tradition among Travellers is to travel during summer. For some, that means staying in one place for a month or two in the coldest part of the year, but not necessarily the same place each year. For some, it mean returning 'home' for the winter. For some, it means settling somewhere during the school year, and for others it means living somewhere permanent, and travelling for a few weeks each year.

And many of them put up with horrid amounts of bullying and prejudice just to obtain basics like housing and medical care, hold down respectable jobs, educate their children, and provide for their families.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Pete Owens
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Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Pete Owens » 20 Jan 2020, 11:49am

Eric the Red wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:"First they came for the Communists.........m"

They may not be a problem in Northumberland, but in South Essex.

... list of common anti-traveller tropes ...

Of course for every unpopular minority there will be a list of stereotypical behaviours that will be reeled off by the haters. for example spot the unpopular minority here:
"scoflaws, run red lights, ride on pavements, don't have lights, hold up traffic, wears black clothes, frightens pedestrians..."
and you could draw up similar lists for other minority groups: Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Homosexuals...

Populist governments tend to pick on minorities to give the impression that they are on the side of the majority - a tactic of Divide & Rule. And the results are almost always bad (if you can only justify a law on the grounds that it applies to other people it is probably not a good idea) and can vary in scale - from bureaucratic inconvenience to genocide.

Also once you give the police powers (supposedly to deal with some group other than yourself) those powers can be used against everyone. A common example in the UK is wide spread abuse of anti-terror legislation.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Trespass - to become a criminal offence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Jan 2020, 2:26pm

At the risk of getting criticised, it's not the travellers that move around that cause issues due to criminality round here it's the ones who have settled. Either in houses or private caravan sites. They're the ones committing burglaries with non- traveller locals I might add or involved in organised fighting or simply outside the norms of society.

A good example of this last one is the local family who built a large house to live in without planning permission. They got around getting caught by building it inside a warehouse. I kid you not.

I am torn over the traveller community because I know there's so many good members as well as the out and out pikeys. There's victims and those who create victims out of others among their numbers. I think I would like to take them as I find them but I know I am too prejudiced against them. My natural tendency is lack of trust. Why? Because I'm guilty of seeing the bad more easily than the good.

I have however got friends who were completely conned then intimidated when they did something about it. I have friends who have had to fight with travellers to keep what was theirs. I've seen mistreatment or lack of care of horses. I've seen feral traveller kids (but I've seen feral non- traveller kids but it's the traveller ones that I remember the most).

It's simply that non- travellers tend to be prejudiced against travellers so it's no wonder they remain outside of our norms. There's no incentive to conform as much as they can whilst keeping a cultural integrity if you only get mistreatment in return. If legal opportunities are not available to you then you'll go for the illegal ones. That's true with anyone on the outside of society. For example a work colleague told us about a guy who knocks on doors offering shoplifted food. He takes orders too. It's a deprived estate with a majority out of work with no future. To our pov that's madness but a guy who shoplifts food to order is normal to some.