Cycle Facility of the Month?

basingstoke123
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Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby basingstoke123 » 9 Jan 2020, 10:38pm

The Warrington Cycle Campaign http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/ seems to have stopped updating its amusing and informative Cycle Facility of the Month. I would always have a look at the start of each month. But the most recent one is for February 2019.

Is this because there are no new examples?

Are standards improving?

Or have we just become used to useless facilities?

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby mjr » 10 Jan 2020, 12:14am

Is it because it didn't have a high enough success rate or enough book sales to justify the effort?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Pete Owens
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby Pete Owens » 10 Jan 2020, 11:26am

There are only so many original jokes to be made about the absurdity of cycle facilities. The original was intended to be a one-off - at the time I didn't imagine that there was such a rich vein of comedy materiel that it would keep going for 20 years.

pwa
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby pwa » 10 Jan 2020, 12:06pm

Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby mjr » 10 Jan 2020, 12:31pm

pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

I suspect the improvement in the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges and the Sustrans Design Manual have much more to do with that - although it sounds like those roundabouts may still not be up to standard.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Pete Owens
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby Pete Owens » 10 Jan 2020, 5:50pm

pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

But then you are on record as supporting any old crap for cycle facilitites on the grounds that cycling is just recreation rather than serious transport:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=133559&start=45#p1415917

basingstoke123
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby basingstoke123 » 11 Jan 2020, 12:24am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

I suspect the improvement in the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges and the Sustrans Design Manual have much more to do with that - although it sounds like those roundabouts may still not be up to standard.

The only improvement in standards that I have seen locally (Basingstoke) are wider paths. They sometimes meet the minimum recommended widths. But still 100% Cycle Route Along Pavements. Still loss of priority at side roads and entrances - although this is now often left unmarked. Still dangerously poor visibility at junctions and on corners. Still ending where most needed. Still lacking turn radii. Still shared use. Still designing large roundabouts with no provision for cyclists.

Although a senior councillor claimed that HCC follows design guidelines, and to my surprise, could even name them!, I have yet to see any evidence of this on the ground.

You need only to look back to 2019 to see examples of substandard design. Yes, there will always be cases where compromises have to be made. But what I find so frustrating is when something is done badly for no reason than it was done badly. Narrow paths where there was more than enough space. Sharpe corners when a bend would have been cheaper. No thought given on access or egress.

The biggest change is that now cycling is seen as 'a good thing'. In the 80's and early 90's asking or complaining about cycling facilities would mostly likely resulted in an 'ugh?', and had they understood the question, the answer would have been 'so what'.

At least there is progress, even if much slower than we would like. When it comes to walking, provision is getting worse.

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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2020, 9:26am

Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

But then you are on record as supporting any old crap for cycle facilitites on the grounds that cycling is just recreation rather than serious transport:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=133559&start=45#p1415917


I'm not even going to read that. It is a distraction. We all see old cycle facilities that are so badly thought out that they are practically unrideable. Narrow tracks with right angle turns, and that sort of thing. Locally, I'm not seeing anything so daft anymore. But I still see cycle facilities around roundabouts that require the cyclist to give way at every place a road exits the roundabout, which I don't like. A simple observation that may or may not accord with what you see around your neck of the woods.

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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby MikeF » 11 Jan 2020, 9:50am

pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.
Sounds like the usual daft "infrastructure" council's often seem to provide for cyclists, no doubt coupled with a plethora of "cyclists dismount" and "end of cycle route" signs :roll:
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

pwa
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2020, 9:58am

MikeF wrote:
pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.
Sounds like the usual daft "infrastructure" council's often seem to provide for cyclists, no doubt coupled with a plethora of "cyclists dismount" and "end of cycle route" signs :roll:

We have had a lot of this sort of thing recently. A good few miles of it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5098998 ... 6?hl=en-GB

On the plus side they are mostly of a decent width and have long sections with no interruptions. And they genuinely link places that people want linked. On the minus side they are alongside busy dual carriageways so are not going to work as leisure routes, and the lack of a barrier between road and track limits use by children. So not perfect but genuinely useful, as opposed to the daft unrideable examples we have seen in the past.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5110685 ... 6?hl=en-GB

basingstoke123
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby basingstoke123 » 11 Jan 2020, 10:17am

pwa wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.

But then you are on record as supporting any old crap for cycle facilitites on the grounds that cycling is just recreation rather than serious transport:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=133559&start=45#p1415917


I'm not even going to read that. It is a distraction. We all see old cycle facilities that are so badly thought out that they are practically unrideable. Narrow tracks with right angle turns, and that sort of thing. Locally, I'm not seeing anything so daft anymore. But I still see cycle facilities around roundabouts that require the cyclist to give way at every place a road exits the roundabout, which I don't like. A simple observation that may or may not accord with what you see around your neck of the woods.

The Basingstoke approach to roundabouts is to put up "END OF ROUTE" as you approach the roundabout. The most recent example (last year) was to make a section of pavement shared use along the A30/Winchester Road DC between the large Winchester Road and Brighton Hill roundabouts. But the shared use section stops before the roundabout.

So, some areas are still enjoy 'Alice in Wonderland' design.

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2020, 10:27am

Yes, there's still far too much rubbish getting built. One difference now is that there are design manuals showing that it is substandard dangerous crap, so at least we're spared having to explain from first principles why it's crap. It's only a small step forwards and we need bigger improvements but it is forwards.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

MikeF
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby MikeF » 11 Jan 2020, 10:38am

pwa wrote:
MikeF wrote:
pwa wrote:Maybe it has helped a bit. New "facilities" in my nearest town aren't all to my taste, taking cyclists on a convoluted and slow passage around roundabouts that I would normally do on-road in seconds, but I don't see any really daft examples among the newer stuff.
Sounds like the usual daft "infrastructure" council's often seem to provide for cyclists, no doubt coupled with a plethora of "cyclists dismount" and "end of cycle route" signs :roll:

We have had a lot of this sort of thing recently. A good few miles of it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5098998 ... 6?hl=en-GB

On the plus side they are mostly of a decent width and have long sections with no interruptions. And they genuinely link places that people want linked. On the minus side they are alongside busy dual carriageways so are not going to work as leisure routes, and the lack of a barrier between road and track limits use by children. So not perfect but genuinely useful, as opposed to the daft unrideable examples we have seen in the past.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5110685 ... 6?hl=en-GB

Construction wise it looks excellent, but design wise very poor without any verge or barrier. Also it's only on one side of the road. This on the Ringmer Lewes road is much better with a hedge as well between the road and path.
West Sussex have a similar design to yours, but in an area without street lights although I haven't seen it or ridden it.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

pwa
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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2020, 11:12am

MikeF wrote:...... Also it's only on one side of the road.

Yes, that is something that bothers me about cycle facilities sometimes, having to cross the road to get to them. But in this particular case it is on the side of the road that suits the great majority of potential users because the settlements at both ends of the route are on that side. And over the last couple of months the route at the Pencoed end has been continued right into the town / village. It is basically a footway redesignation at that point but with complete reconstruction and widening, so I am reserving judgement. At the Bridgend side there is still a lot of work going on, with major traffic jams as lanes of the A473 are closed to allow for construction, so full marks for commitment at least. A large traffic island now has cycle paths across it like a giant spider, so I wait to see how that pans out.

This is the island as it was before work started.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bridg ... 5?hl=en-GB

It now has a network of wide cycle paths across it, constructed in the last few weeks, so clearly there is a major network under construction. I'm guessing that the strategy is to connect places of work with residential areas.

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Re: Cycle Facility of the Month?

Postby MikeF » 13 Jan 2020, 7:08pm

pwa wrote:
MikeF wrote:...... Also it's only on one side of the road.

Yes, that is something that bothers me about cycle facilities sometimes, having to cross the road to get to them.
It's not only that, passing oncoming cyclists and pedestrians with them on the right and fast motor traffic on the left and with the potential of dropping off a kerb I don't think is a very good design as regards safety. Also at night motorists and cyclists will have oncoming lights in close proximity. On the other hand this near Tunbridge Wells is the widest shared path on the side of a road I've ever used. It does feel safe to use because of its width (perhaps not obvious in Streetview). Maybe the ones in your area are wider than they look. However this path at Pembury ends/starts without any thought for cyclists. :roll:
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master