Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

peetee
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby peetee » 28 Jan 2020, 10:51am

reohn2 wrote:
mattheus wrote:I think peetee is making a distinction between your overall approach (in a rush, or safety first, etc) and
the quick, snap judgements we make in many situations (e.g. will that bike get to me before I pull out?). "Decisions" a better word?

The argument FOR visibility is that it can make the decisions more accurate, cos you can see people better.

The counter-argument is that most crashes are caused by impatience etc, not a lack of correct information.

I agree,I was merely pointing out that risk by drivers is unbelievable at times.
I'm either getting more nervous in my old age(not unknown)or a significant increasing element of UK drivers are taking more dangerous risks which becomes more apparent in threat of injury personally when cycling.There doesn't seem to be an appreciation of the dangers involved with such actions ,that or that significant element simply don't care :?


I agree but would add that IMO vehicle development is partly to blame. The dynamics of the modern car means they corner, brake and accelerate far more effectively. This translates to a potentially safer environment for the occupants but also the potential for greater velocity anywhere and often to the detriment physically, mentally or practically to other road users.
By this I mean the accident statistics don’t tell the whole story. Having just returned to cycling after 10 years out it is very apparent to me just how frequently excessive speed is causing issues. I have blacklisted some local roads and wonder just what this near constant fear of and occasional happening of close misses may have on my mental health.
Last edited by peetee on 28 Jan 2020, 10:59am, edited 1 time in total.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby Oldjohnw » 28 Jan 2020, 10:54am

mjr wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I have read but I couldn't begin to remember where that white and silver cars were involved in less accidents. I really don't know.

Surveys are inconsistent. There are also lots of confounding factors, such as stereotypical boy racers favouring red and blue cars and being involved in more collisions than average.


My memory was not that it was a survey but insurance stats. Beyond that I don't know.
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby PDQ Mobile » 28 Jan 2020, 10:57am

Now the topic has resurfaced.
I sadly have to report coming upon a cyclist involved accident last week on the Llêyn Peninsula.

It was a foul drizzly and misty night visibility was restricted, though the distance one could see "something" remained quite high.
Main beam headlights were often counterproductive due to reflected glare.
Wipers on intermittent were sometimes too slow, and on constant ran dry on the screen at times. The amount of actual precipitation was variable.
An inversion coastal fog drifting far inland.
Traffic light, groups of two or three oncoming vehicles at times.

The cyclist had been hit from behind by a 4x4. Just outside a street lit 30 mph limit on, to that point, an unlit and straight, though gently undulating and fast main A road.

No pavements.
Solid kerb and grass verge.

His shoes were strewn on the road.
15 or 20 meters further along his bike was still under the front of the 4x4. Bits of reflector and bike evident at point of impact.
The fellow was badly hurt, and just conscious, lying in the road near the kerb some distance behind the vehicle.
When I came upon the scene 3 or 4 others were helping.

It is my guess he was thrown clear (or over) and not run over.
He was dressed in grey for the most part. I do not know if he had lights.
I saw none and no hiviz.

I do not know the outcome.
And I did not converse with the vehicle driver.

We passing motorists did what we could to protect the man until the ambulance (a long15 mins) and police (20 mins) arrived.
One dared not move him from the carriageway.

It was pretty traumatic.
And I have tried to accurately and honestly report what I experienced.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby Oldjohnw » 28 Jan 2020, 11:00am

From the AA - pretty inconclusive;

"A study in New Zealand (published in the British Medical Journal in 2003) looked at the effect of car colour and the risk of injury in a crash, and suggested that silver is the safest colour. But there are so many factors involved in an accident that it's impossible to be certain. The result could be influenced by the type of driver that typically buys a silver car, the driving conditions or the safety equipment fitted."

Here's a link to the New Scientist which reported it;

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -the-road/
John

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby mjr » 28 Jan 2020, 11:14am

PDQ Mobile wrote:It was pretty traumatic.
And I have tried to accurately and honestly report what I experienced.

I hope you all get over the trauma but I am not sure that anecdote adds much useful information here.
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby mattheus » 28 Jan 2020, 11:17am

EDIT: this is in reply to the car-colour survey - not in response to PDQ's tragic story.

That reminds me of my age-15 stats lessons;
Survey shows that drivers wearing a reverse baseball cap are more likely to crash.
Discuss!
Last edited by mattheus on 28 Jan 2020, 1:19pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby PDQ Mobile » 28 Jan 2020, 11:48am

mjr wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:It was pretty traumatic.
And I have tried to accurately and honestly report what I experienced.

I hope you all get over the trauma but I am not sure that anecdote adds much useful information here.

Yes I got over it though memory remains.
I agree it doesn't really add much.
I wish it did.
Just a sad accident?
And I only (slightly reluctantly) put it here after the topic resurfaced.

Though the suspicion remains that a more visible presence of the cyclist might have avoided it happening.
Note "might have".

If there were no lights on the bike what do you think about culpability?

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby mjr » 28 Jan 2020, 12:15pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Though the suspicion remains that a more visible presence of the cyclist might have avoided it happening.
Note "might have".

With the mess the bike was in, he could have had a rear-mounted red searchlight for all we know, smashed, bounced off the road or stuck under the 4x4. We know nothing about lane positions. I don't see much evidence for the suspicion.

If there were no lights on the bike what do you think about culpability?

Major on the driver (should be able to see even unlit objects in time to stop), minor on cyclist for breaking lighting regs. You?
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jan 2020, 12:30pm

Oldjohnw wrote:From the AA - pretty inconclusive;

"A study in New Zealand (published in the British Medical Journal in 2003) looked at the effect of car colour and the risk of injury in a crash, and suggested that silver is the safest colour. But there are so many factors involved in an accident that it's impossible to be certain. The result could be influenced by the type of driver that typically buys a silver car, the driving conditions or the safety equipment fitted."

Here's a link to the New Scientist which reported it;

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -the-road/

This 2007 study obtained contrasting results https://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pd ... h-risk.pdf The authors suggest that lack of exposure data (miles travelled by car colour) could be one factor that explains differences in results. Also, some studies look at crash risk , while others look at injury risk. The Australians seem to like discussions about car colour & crash risk ;)
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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby [XAP]Bob » 28 Jan 2020, 1:05pm

mjr wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Though the suspicion remains that a more visible presence of the cyclist might have avoided it happening.
Note "might have".

With the mess the bike was in, he could have had a rear-mounted red searchlight for all we know, smashed, bounced off the road or stuck under the 4x4. We know nothing about lane positions. I don't see much evidence for the suspicion.

If there were no lights on the bike what do you think about culpability?

Major on the driver (should be able to see even unlit objects in time to stop), minor on cyclist for breaking lighting regs. You?


Daylight - no reg would have been broken...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jan 2020, 1:53pm

peetee wrote:...... When something does happen it’s bad luck, someone else’s fault, etc etc.

Or it's a "dangerous road" :roll:
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby PDQ Mobile » 28 Jan 2020, 4:21pm

mjr wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Though the suspicion remains that a more visible presence of the cyclist might have avoided it happening.
Note "might have".

With the mess the bike was in, he could have had a rear-mounted red searchlight for all we know, smashed, bounced off the road or stuck under the 4x4. We know nothing about lane positions. I don't see much evidence for the suspicion.

If there were no lights on the bike what do you think about culpability?

Major on the driver (should be able to see even unlit objects in time to stop), minor on cyclist for breaking lighting regs. You?


Well I am less convinced I must say.
The rear hit is an unusual accident statistically I believe.
While I do not know if the driver was distracted it would appear he simply did not see the guy at all.

If as you suggest the cyclist had a decent rear light or even more then IMV it may not have happened.
I told the of event as I witnessed it.
I cannot say for certain.

But neither can you.

If the cyclist had no lights on such a road and in such poor conditions then the law will rightly find him at least jointly culpable methinks.

And while I have a deal of sympathy for him I also have deal for the vehicle driver too.
On culpability therefore, until I know further facts, I will go 50/50.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby mattheus » 28 Jan 2020, 4:37pm

PDQ: you rightly point out that mjr doesn't know what rear-light the guy had. And neither do you.

And there's lots more that YOU don't know:
- lane position(s),
- speed of Car,
(was this appropriate for the conditions? I'd say that near a 30mph sign in foul conditions, very possibly not)
- medical state of driver
- was he looking where he was going?
- or answering a phone-call
- what other vehicles were involved? (a 3rd party may have triggered these events, then driven off like crazy, leaving two affected road-users)
- mechanical state of car
- lights on?

Of course this is all ridiculous to discuss, as you're the only witness FROM THIS FORUM, and even you didn't see it happen. There are at least 2 better witnesses.

I'm sorry you had this experience, but I really don't think it's constructive to add it to this debate.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby PDQ Mobile » 28 Jan 2020, 6:04pm

^^ mattheus
In that case I think I'll drop it.
I posted it as I had expressed an opinion earlier in the thread about the (what I see as) wisdom of being reasonably visible on rural roads.
Just that, not a " blackpool illumiation" type approach.

As you rightly say I am the only one that was present there on here.
There is no mention in the local press- only comes out Thursdays. Incident happened on last Thurs eve.
.........
I did not see a light or shards of a light anywhere on the road, only a wheel reflector, and I did have a fair look at that area because it was where I stood to warn the oncoming traffic.
I did not examine the bike- of course but it had no visible front or rear light.

I do know the fellow was in grey clothes on an exceptionally grey evening. As far as I can tell he had no reflective whatsoever.

This is my last word on it until Thursday, if anything appears in the press and it could be the car driver's condition or culpability, I will report it here.

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Re: Why does ‘cyclist wearing dark clothing' exist as a contributory factor in KSIs

Postby AlaninWales » 29 Jan 2020, 9:30am

I drove to Carmarthen and back last night. It was a grey evening, wet and drizzly with slight mist in places although clearer towards town. There were several walkers out, some collecting shopping from local village shops, others walking dogs, some on unidentifiable (to me) errands. Most were wearing normal clothes, dark in colour with no particular effort to be seen; the exception was one dog walker who wore a yellow vest which had probably been hi-viz at one time, but (with time and possibly repeated washing) which was simply a dark and dull yellow, no brighter than their grey coat, There was a branch in the road at one point - pretty grey and with no hi-viz.

Spectacular news though: I managed to see and avoid driving into every single one of them! This is probably because I was using lights correctly and (shock!) actually looking to check that the road was clear before I drove on it. I continued this remarkable attention to detail whilst parking, checking out the back window and using mirrors and reversing camera to ensure I didn't drive into anything in my path.

I am aware that some people are challenged in regard to their ability to concentrate sufficiently to perform such a feat . It now seems that their potential victims all bear responsibility to drag these people's attention back to the task in hand (driving safely) from wherever it has wandered. Personally I am old-fashioned enough to believe still that these people have no inherent right to be driving.