Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

reohn2
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 6:19pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:so, if scooters do become road legal subject to perhaps a 15mph limit, how about getting the maximum assisted speed for electric bikes raised to 25mph. any thoughts? In the same way that the illegal use of CBs in the UK eventually led to them being legalised, albeit in a slightly different format to the ones used and imported from the usa etc, we all know of cyclists who have electric bikes capable of trashing the legal speed, whether by design or by tampering. Legalise and control through sensible proportionate licensing.

Personally I think 20mph should be the limit for e-assisted cycles unregistered,over which some form of licencing is needed with 30mph being the next level needing some form of reg plate and third party insurance
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mjr
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby mjr » 6 Feb 2020, 6:34pm

reohn2 wrote:IMO the problem isn't e-scooters,e-bikes or bikes at all,but the sheer lack of forethought by the public and authotities on what future town and city centre travel should be like.

There's plenty of forethought: it's stuff like declaring "cars are essential" at the outset and then everything becomes an exercise in stuffing more cars into streets last rebuilt for horse and carriage. I agree with you that "things can't carry on as they are but almost no one's making any real serious progress for change AFAICS" - the change will be forced upon them as the logical result of trying to give every person their own 4m x 3m car-sized space (plus the stopping distance in front of it) is gridlock - no matter whether those cars are powered by dead dino juice or batteries - and I really really hope that no-one still wants to try 1960s-scale demolitions of town centres to build bigger roads.

The way to get the most people through a small town crossroads is by foot or bikes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-L-B1aH8AE
Last edited by mjr on 6 Feb 2020, 6:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fastpedaller
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby fastpedaller » 6 Feb 2020, 6:34pm

I'd be cautious about folks who maybe aren't used to cycling going round bends at 20mph regardless of conditions

reohn2
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 6:52pm

fastpedaller wrote:I'd be cautious about folks who maybe aren't used to cycling going round bends at 20mph regardless of conditions

But people can do that now on unassisted bicycles.
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Nigel
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby Nigel » 6 Feb 2020, 6:53pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:so, if scooters do become road legal subject to perhaps a 15mph limit, how about getting the maximum assisted speed for electric bikes raised to 25mph. any thoughts? In the same way that the illegal use of CBs in the UK eventually led to them being legalised, albeit in a slightly different format to the ones used and imported from the usa etc, we all know of cyclists who have electric bikes capable of trashing the legal speed, whether by design or by tampering. Legalise and control through sensible proportionate licensing.


I'd say "stick with the current 15mph". Its fast enough for most cycling. I know plenty of regular cyclists who can't hold 15mph for an extended time on level ground on human driven machines. The machine category is for cycling, not "racing on the highway". The current requirements have some maximum weights and power outputs, and that's it. There is no long term requirement to properly service the machine, ensure the brakes work, etc., except by means of prosecution for riding recklessly after a serious accident.

Any quicker and one should be into licensing, MOT tests, etc.. which make them a motor vehicle. Whether one would like a new category of "electric moped" or similar, with appropriate regulations, is an open question in my mind.


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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby PH » 6 Feb 2020, 7:19pm

reohn2 wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I'd be cautious about folks who maybe aren't used to cycling going round bends at 20mph regardless of conditions

But people can do that now on unassisted bicycles.

Not many, certainly isn’t the norm. I can’t keep up with good quality legal E-bikes and if I’m passed on the cycle paths I use every day 9 times out of 10 it’s by an E-bike. IMO the current limit is about right for mixing with unassisted bikes.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby niggle » 14 Feb 2020, 10:29am

I agree re the ebike speed restriction of 25kmh (15.5mph) being about right, you wouldn't want quicker bikes mixing with pedestrians on shared use paths. (Not much you can do about too fast riding of unassisted bikes other than prosecute when they endanger or harm others.)

A couple of weeks ago on my legal ebike with panniers stuffed with shopping I was passed by a bunch of roadies on the flat (who greeted me cheerily at that point) then shortly after I passed them going up hill (got a couple of black looks then), then through town they caught me at a red light (but were not looking at me, just staring dead ahead). Then when the light went green for a moment, just for fun, I added strong pedalling to full motor power and accelerated away quicker than the guy who was trying to show me who was boss, but then relented and they passed me again, a couple of them quite close. I was enjoying it all and laughing but they seemed to have no sense of humour. Our routes diverged at that point and I was glad as in their direction there was a big dip ahead with a steep climb after, where I would undoubtedly have passed them again with ease, and I hate to think how they would have reacted to that.

My main point is that it seems about the right amount of assistance to be useful without being overly advantageous compared to getting fit on a bike or putting effort in on an ebike. Descent speed is not affected by the assistance, on the flat you have to do all the work above 15.5mph and up hill you have a modest advantage, plus 5 or so mph if you put some effort in. Battery range is also affected by how much effort you put in, and the bigger the battery the more it weighs and costs.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby mercalia » 18 Feb 2020, 12:56pm

kwackers wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I should think e-scooter riders will face danger if they're mixing in with traffic.
One thing that worries me is that people are already saying e-scooter users will HAVE to wear helmets, and that could re-enforce the (IMHO wrong) opinion that cyclist should also.

There's no aspect of e-scooter use that doesn't apply to bicycles and vice versa (including folk saying you have to wear a helmet).

Similar speed (probably slower - I've overtaken a fair number on my bike), same width and so same visibility.
Should be on the roads (or cycle paths) not on pavements and if the roads are too dangerous for scooters then they're too dangerous for bicycles.

Currently I reckon they're probably safer by virtue of being unusual - even as a cyclist I spot them a mile up the road whereas I probably wouldn't notice a cyclist a similar distance away.


not true, you are assuming you only see it from the back where ever you are positioned. There are many angles from full side on to from the back and all those inbetween. roads are not Roman roads that go on and on in a straight line, with also movement meandering so do expose different profiles "from behind". As such cycles are much more visible.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 18 Feb 2020, 2:31pm

mercalia wrote:not true, you are assuming you only see it from the back where ever you are positioned. There are many angles from full side on to from the back and all those inbetween. roads are not Roman roads that go on and on in a straight line, with also movement meandering so do expose different profiles "from behind". As such cycles are much more visible.

Are we still going on about this?

Simples, my experience of seeing both cyclists and scooter riders on the road says visibility is more a condition of what they wear than the transport they choose.
If anything the position and lack of motion alerts my brain earlier than it otherwise would.

Your view differs, but I suspect they're not going to go away so if you have trouble seeing them in time then perhaps the issue is you(?)

Barks
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby Barks » 18 Feb 2020, 9:32pm

Came across an e-scooter in my small town today, on the pavement reasonably controlled but with all pedestrians giving very wide berth due it being new and strange. I had young dog ((5 mth old) with me who was very unsettled by it. I asked the chap why he wasn’t using the road and he replied it was illegal to use e-scooters on the road. No chance to engage further as he carried on by, he was quite polite just clearly wanting to justify his coolness using something novel and getting attention IMO.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 19 Feb 2020, 10:24am

Barks wrote:just clearly wanting to justify his coolness using something novel and getting attention IMO.

Sounds like you accosted him and foisted said attention on him, that he continued on his way suggests he wasn't that keen on attention...

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby The utility cyclist » 20 Feb 2020, 3:13am

e-bikes/e-scooters should be limited to 12mph, this is more than adequate, it will also increase range and not reduce the users ability to go faster under their own steam. 'Free' speed/propulsion and how this affects the way people think seems to have been completely missed here, there's no surprise that e-bikes have seen significant rises in deaths in Germany and NL (the two biggest users) and the speed/acceleration is a contributory factor.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 20 Feb 2020, 8:36am

The utility cyclist wrote:e-bikes/e-scooters should be limited to 12mph, this is more than adequate, it will also increase range and not reduce the users ability to go faster under their own steam. 'Free' speed/propulsion and how this affects the way people think seems to have been completely missed here, there's no surprise that e-bikes have seen significant rises in deaths in Germany and NL (the two biggest users) and the speed/acceleration is a contributory factor.

I think the limit should be increased to 30mph so we'll split the difference and call it 21. ;)

12mph is a waste of space.
You either want low power electric vehicles or you don't.
What you seem to want is a ban but want to sound "reasonable" by simply advocating a limit so low nobody would want one, essentially turning them into toys.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby Cugel » 20 Feb 2020, 9:23am

kwackers wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:e-bikes/e-scooters should be limited to 12mph, this is more than adequate, it will also increase range and not reduce the users ability to go faster under their own steam. 'Free' speed/propulsion and how this affects the way people think seems to have been completely missed here, there's no surprise that e-bikes have seen significant rises in deaths in Germany and NL (the two biggest users) and the speed/acceleration is a contributory factor.

I think the limit should be increased to 30mph so we'll split the difference and call it 21. ;)

12mph is a waste of space.
You either want low power electric vehicles or you don't.
What you seem to want is a ban but want to sound "reasonable" by simply advocating a limit so low nobody would want one, essentially turning them into toys.


After a lot of reading here and elsewhere, as well as riding many, many miles with the ladywife on her electric bike, I find myself tending to agree with either a lower assist limit or keeping the current one. Anything with more assisted speed is becoming a motorbike. If you want to go fast, get a Honda or perhaps a Kwacker. :-)

There is an unfortunate predominance in Blighty of the notion that cycling is really faux road racing: MAMILs et al. As an ex-racing fellow I like to go about at a fast lick myself. But public-space cycling is better in the old-fashioned mode, I feel - more tourist than MAMIL-in-an-INEOS-jersey. E-bikes should really be about giving assistance to the less fit on the hard bits (hills and into the wind) not pretending you're a Geraint.

Of course, there is a case for 30mph e-bikes - along with the associated limitations applied to any fast vehicle with a tendency to do serious harm when the inept rider makes a faux-pas. That means tests, banning from cyclepaths and so forth. And let's call them "electric motorbikes" just to be clear.

Some will argue that an ordinary bicycle rider can do 30mph. True - but not many and not habitually. Averages are more like 12-15mph with the odd 20+mph burst. We cannot count those time trialists or MAMILs going downhill dangerously as "average cyclists". Not even me going down hills safely!

Cugel

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 20 Feb 2020, 11:10am

Cugel wrote:After a lot of reading here and elsewhere, as well as riding many, many miles with the ladywife on her electric bike, I find myself tending to agree with either a lower assist limit or keeping the current one. Anything with more assisted speed is becoming a motorbike. If you want to go fast, get a Honda or perhaps a Kwacker. :-)

I think there's a huge difference between a motorbike and a bicycle (even an electric one) - probably at least 80kg ;)

If you commute any distance you can soon get close to an average of 20mph with peaks of near 30mph.
The 15mph cut off made my ebike debateably useful - although being able to defeat it due to a "bug" in the software enhanced it's value no end (even if it was only for short periods).

My car needed replacing so I've now bought an EV. Whilst I *have* to own a car I don't *have* to own a bicycle - particularly one that doesn't suit my long commute.
A 20-25mph assisted bicycle along with the simplicity it brings regarding use would be an ideal replacement for my car (for commuting).
A 15 mph bicycle I've decided isn't.

So as a society we choose the direction and it seems to me that direction is cars.
When even cyclists are hostile to ebikes and escooters apparently preferring folk to use cars you've got to ask yourself what exactly is their take on the future of transport.

I currently own 3 'broken' bikes and no working bikes.
TBH I'm currently of the opinion I can't be bothered fixing them. I get plenty of exercise in other ways and I value my time too much to spend it riding a bike on a journey I can do in better ways.