Future of humans driving motor vehicles.

[Mike Sales]

What will happen is automation will creep in and most folk won't notice it.

Surely robot cars will obey the law and speed limits. That would be noticeable!

[JohnW]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

[Mike Sales]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

Yebbut, If most cars are compliant, speeding becomes more conspicuous and more difficult. A hacked car, like an uninsured car, would be confiscated.

[JohnW]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

Yebbut, If most cars are compliant, speeding becomes more conspicuous and more difficult. A hacked car, like an uninsured car, would be confiscated...........................

...................................................but only after it had done it's dastardly deed - i.e. killed someone.

[Mike Sales]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

Yebbut, If most cars are compliant, speeding becomes more conspicuous and more difficult. A hacked car, like an uninsured car, would be confiscated...........................

...................................................but only after it had done it's dastardly deed - i.e. killed someone.

I imagine a line of cars all driving at thirty mph, if the conditions allow, and one which overtakes at every meagre opportunity. The hacked car would not be hard for an alert policeman to detect.

[Bmblbzzz]

It probably wouldn't (in this future world) even need a policeman to notice it. The compliant autonomous vehicles would dob it in.

[kwackers]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

If it wasn't a problem everyone with a bit of technical knowledge would be driving round in £40k cars since Tesla hand you a free car if you manage to hack it.
AFAIK only a few cars have been handed over (I only know of one but lets assume there are others).
You also get $15k for simply finding a bug.

The other point is that people can't hack into your bank account, that's not been true for at least a few years.
Most attacks on bank accounts involve fooling folk into handing over their details because it turns out that a system is only as secure as it's weakest link and that link is always a person.

No idea about government systems but I can't say I'd be too surprised if they were vulnerable, having both used them and know folk who work on them I wouldn't trust the gov with any IT project, they even seem incapable of farming out the work to others (although I have a sneaking suspicion that each contract comes with an army of middle management gov types all pulling it in different directions).

As an amusing aside there is one kind of 'hack' that works on AI based cars: Making up false road signs.

You could for example if you were so inclined slow them down to 20 or even 10mph on a road with a bit of cardboard and some crayons.
AI isn't so advanced it can recognise a bit of cardboard with a road sign drawn on in crayon as false - not yet at least.
Even if it could it'd be fairly easy to make a realistic looking sign.
What's particularly amusing is I suspect that the main reason such signs would fail with people is because they'd ignore them anyway.

[JohnW]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

If it wasn't a problem everyone with a bit of technical knowledge would be driving round in £40k cars since Tesla hand you a free car if you manage to hack it.
AFAIK only a few cars have been handed over (I only know of one but lets assume there are others).
You also get $15k for simply finding a bug.

The other point is that people can't hack into your bank account, that's not been true for at least a few years.
Most attacks on bank accounts involve fooling folk into handing over their details because it turns out that a system is only as secure as it's weakest link and that link is always a person.

No idea about government systems but I can't say I'd be too surprised if they were vulnerable, having both used them and know folk who work on them I wouldn't trust the gov with any IT project, they even seem incapable of farming out the work to others (although I have a sneaking suspicion that each contract comes with an army of middle management gov types all pulling it in different directions).

As an amusing aside there is one kind of 'hack' that works on AI based cars: Making up false road signs.

You could for example if you were so inclined slow them down to 20 or even 10mph on a road with a bit of cardboard and some crayons.
AI isn't so advanced it can recognise a bit of cardboard with a road sign drawn on in crayon as false - not yet at least.
Even if it could it'd be fairly easy to make a realistic looking sign.
What's particularly amusing is I suspect that the main reason such signs would fail with people is because they'd ignore them anyway.

Kwackers - there are evil people worldwide, hacking into almost everything and causing all kinds of 'problems'.
Acquiring and applying the ability and knowledge of how 'to do it' is not a 'problem' to those who are so minded - it's possible for them, it becomes easy for them and then second nature for them.

It is not a 'problem' for them.
That's what I mean when I say "........won't be a problem......."
I do not say that it won't be a problem to the right minded and civilized among us.

It may not be a problem that ".....everyone with a bit of technical knowledge ....." isn't hacking in to endanger to lives, but isn't that because not everyone ".....with a bit of technical knowledge ....." is so minded - thank goodness.

You end your post with : "What's particularly amusing is I suspect that the main reason such signs would fail with people is because they'd ignore them anyway". Well you're correct - most drivers do indeed ".......ignore them (the signs) anyway"....... - we see it all the time - but it's certainly not amusing.

[Cyril Haearn]

Anybody observed a driver who can read and obey a STOP sign?

[kwackers]

Kwackers - there are evil people worldwide, hacking into almost everything and causing all kinds of 'problems'.
Acquiring and applying the ability and knowledge of how 'to do it' is not a 'problem' to those who are so minded - it's possible for them, it becomes easy for them and then second nature for them.

True hacking hardly ever exists anymore - unless you watch too many films.
These days your details are usually obtained through surreptitious means - i.e. phoning you up and asking you for them.
Surprising how many people fall for it.

It is not a 'problem' for them.
That's what I mean when I say "........won't be a problem......."
I do not say that it won't be a problem to the right minded and civilized among us.

It may not be a problem that ".....everyone with a bit of technical knowledge ....." isn't hacking in to endanger to lives, but isn't that because not everyone ".....with a bit of technical knowledge ....." is so minded - thank goodness.

The phrase "it's not a problem" makes it sound like it's easy.
It isn't. There are some very bright people out there with the motivation to crack these things and they're generally not getting very far.

Once you remove the human element from what passes for "hacking" these days you'll find it's much less of a problem than folk like you seem to think.
(I've spent my life writing software including secure systems so I've a fairly good idea how these things work).

You end your post with : "What's particularly amusing is I suspect that the main reason such signs would fail with people is because they'd ignore them anyway". Well you're correct - most drivers do indeed ".......ignore them (the signs) anyway"....... - we see it all the time - but it's certainly not amusing.

"Amusing" used in an ironic sense I think you'll find.

[mattsccm]

How would these vehicles behave when taken off road? Somewhere where there is no fixed line to follow or a surface that cannot be predicted maybe. The latter situation can already create problems with ABS

[AlaninWales]

If evil people can hack into your bank account, and 'secure' government systems, hacking into one of the many millions of robot cars won't be a problem................

If it wasn't a problem everyone with a bit of technical knowledge would be driving round in £40k cars since Tesla hand you a free car if you manage to hack it.
AFAIK only a few cars have been handed over (I only know of one but lets assume there are others).
You also get $15k for simply finding a bug.

The other point is that people can't hack into your bank account, that's not been true for at least a few years.
Most attacks on bank accounts involve fooling folk into handing over their details because it turns out that a system is only as secure as it's weakest link and that link is always a person.

No idea about government systems but I can't say I'd be too surprised if they were vulnerable, having both used them and know folk who work on them I wouldn't trust the gov with any IT project, they even seem incapable of farming out the work to others (although I have a sneaking suspicion that each contract comes with an army of middle management gov types all pulling it in different directions).

As an amusing aside there is one kind of 'hack' that works on AI based cars: Making up false road signs.

You could for example if you were so inclined slow them down to 20 or even 10mph on a road with a bit of cardboard and some crayons.
AI isn't so advanced it can recognise a bit of cardboard with a road sign drawn on in crayon as false - not yet at least.
Even if it could it'd be fairly easy to make a realistic looking sign.
What's particularly amusing is I suspect that the main reason such signs would fail with people is because they'd ignore them anyway.

Replying to the bit that I have highlighted in bold, here's a recent 'amusing' system, the hackability of which reached the public domain: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/28/anpr_sheffield_council/?fbclid=IwAR3jYwupSgylYdJKYmGdwIA2PDIjXoeL2UtaA8ngOkPiMAoShHxinqUP_HE

Nine million logs of Brits' road journeys spill onto the internet from password-less number-plate camera dashboard
Democratising mass surveillance, one snafu at a time

[The utility cyclist]

Doesn't matter if you have robot/AI motorvehicles, their mere presence is enough to prevent the vast majority from wanting to cycle on a road, and if you don't take the space away from motorists/motorvehicles then you have no hope whatsoever of turning the tide.
Yes there will be fewer deaths using AI vehicles and fewer injuries, but it still won't increase cycling, particularly in the target groups.

Additionally if you don't adjust the speed limits either it's also pretty ineffective, not sure if mentioned but the programming itself is also massive in determining outcome of incidents and understanding of responsibility not to mention predicting what might occur at certain junctures. Humans can't even grasp basics like a child running out between a car is a thing, or a child skewing off suddenly on a bike or even just falling off because they lost control, something that AI cannot see or predict from the nuanced actions/movements before the losing control happens, so what hope the programmers for billion £££ companies whose sole purpose is to make money and dodge paying taxes.

[tim-b]

Hi
Fiat Chrysler (link) suffered with hacking in 2015 One of the independent security researchers said, "I wonder what is cheaper, designing secure cars or doing recalls?" as 1.4m cars were recalled.
The cars were fitted with the appropriately named uConnect system
Regards
tim-b

[kwackers]

Doesn't matter if you have robot/AI motorvehicles, their mere presence is enough to prevent the vast majority from wanting to cycle on a road, and if you don't take the space away from motorists/motorvehicles then you have no hope whatsoever of turning the tide.
Yes there will be fewer deaths using AI vehicles and fewer injuries, but it still won't increase cycling, particularly in the target groups.

Additionally if you don't adjust the speed limits either it's also pretty ineffective, not sure if mentioned but the programming itself is also massive in determining outcome of incidents and understanding of responsibility not to mention predicting what might occur at certain junctures. Humans can't even grasp basics like a child running out between a car is a thing, or a child skewing off suddenly on a bike or even just falling off because they lost control, something that AI cannot see or predict from the nuanced actions/movements before the losing control happens, so what hope the programmers for billion £££ companies whose sole purpose is to make money and dodge paying taxes.

So you don't want AI cars?
You simply want to leave things as they are, because you'd prefer to share the roads with apes than computers even if they're more dangerous?

I wouldn't and there's no need to. AI controlled vehicles already exist, they're driving along roads near you already.
AI isn't a step change, it's a gradual transition that's already here and has been happening for a while.

If your argument is that you'd like to see less cars then me too.
But lets be honest it isn't going to happen - present situation notwithstanding.
Sometimes you have to accept a compromise and if you can't remove the cars then replacing the drivers with something more competent is a good compromise.
All imo.