Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

SA_SA_SA
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Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby SA_SA_SA » 27 Feb 2020, 6:08pm

How to move HGVs off roads onto rail(to save energy) when UK companies like HGVs a lot, so not all their freight will end up in container trains and the UK railways loading gauge(s) are too small for channel-tunnel Euro-shuttle style drive on/off motor rail that takes entire HGVs and cars etc?.........
...
what if there was some special (motorvehicle only) roads with more than two lanes in each direction, that are already brutally ugly, are already used by HGVs in road vehicle mode, roads that most drivers seem to view driving along as tedious........are marked blue on maps......

i.e motorways: why not return the road vehicle section of motorways to 2 lanes in each direction (as in civilised days of old :) ), and put 25kv electrified railway in the remaining lanes with a loading gauge to match EuroShuttles:

1) You would need rack and cog (or a ducted fan on rear of train?) for help up some motorway gradients?
2) If there is congestion on the 2 motor vehicle lanes : well should have got the motor-rail shouldn't you :)

3) Lots of fuel could then be saved along with reduced rubber particulates from tires etc. Car drivers could relax on a train on a motorway rather driving down one...

The Germans tax long distance HGV travel enough that for long distance rail is preferable. A shuttle would also save driver hours.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)


John Holiday
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby John Holiday » 27 Feb 2020, 8:28pm

Excellent suggestion.
Have never been able to understand why we don't encourage greater freight distribution by rail rather than by road.
Several big road schemes in North Wales are only designed to speed heavy vehicles to the coastal ports.
Much of this should be ferried by rail,rather than destroying ancient Woodlands & valuable farm land for more roads.
More roads simply encourages yet more vehicles.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 27 Feb 2020, 8:34pm

Many trucks go by Penmaenmawr on the way from Nederland to Eire, with flowers
Such transports should not be moved to rail, they should be stopped altogether
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fullupandslowingdown
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 27 Feb 2020, 8:59pm

if you look at the gradients on the modern high speed railways in europe, they're quite steep. When they were building them, they were borrowing our old freight locos and using them in multiple to drag the engineering trains up slopes. I presume that as the passenger trains not only are lighter, but they have a run up to each hill so only have to keep going till the top. Perhaps use electromagnets to help stick the locomotives to the rails, as pioneered by Tri-ang railways over 40 years ago :D

But it still comes down to the old reason why BR started to haemorrhage money on freight operation way back in the 60s. Individual loads cost much more because of the individual sorting and routing of loads. The railways are efficient at transporting blocks of freight over a distance from one fixed port to another, such as coal and oil. Councils and the government have allowed out of town development of industrial estates where there are good road links but rubbish rail. The road hauliers don't like the hassle of rolling on and off railway wagons, it takes time, risks damage and unless it's a lot cheaper, so why bother.

Maybe as tesla et al develop electric HGVs, they should add inductive charging and then embed wiring in the motorways so the lorries run almost entirely off the mains, then use their batteries for the final mile. Still means a massive investment in the national grid system, and in green electricity generation, as the existing system doesn't have any reserve at peak demand even now.

Another issue is this preoccupation with 'just in time' manufacture. Seeing as councils like giving companies our green belt locations to run businesses at low tax rates, why not shift the balance a little. Allow businesses that depend on large volumes of parts for manufacture to occupy warehousing at lower tax rates to encourage them to keep more goods in store. That way they can even out the production demands over the week rather than the hour with supply that changes according to whether the sun is shining - literally. i.e when the sun is shining, more solar electric is generated, so more trucks, trains and boats are run to deliver goods. Seeing as employees are now used to been hired and fired at the whim of management that won't make any real change there.

Thing is that the bean counters don't look at the big picture. Not only is the warehousing space a consideration to them, but also the inventory cost of spare goods. But when many profitable companies have generous cash reserves, and interest rates for deposits are low anyway, why not use that surplus cash usefully on spares ready for a rainy day?

Smudgerii
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Smudgerii » 27 Feb 2020, 9:06pm

The thing to remember is that everything we buy in the UK will have been moved by an HGV at some point in it’s journey within the UK.

With that in mind, how does the ‘railroad’ plan stack up?

Mike Sales
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Feb 2020, 9:21pm

Smudgerii wrote:The thing to remember is that everything we buy in the UK will have been moved by an HGV at some point in it’s journey within the UK.

With that in mind, how does the ‘railroad’ plan stack up?


You assume that since that is the way we do things now, then it is the only possible way of doing things.
But it is generally agreed that our present course is leading to climate disaster, and we shall have to do things differently in future.
We have to put a value on the things we are now destroying. This will change the economic considerations.
Unless, of course, we lack the imagination to avert disaster.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Pete Owens » 28 Feb 2020, 12:44am

fullupandslowingdown wrote:Thing is that the bean counters don't look at the big picture. Not only is the warehousing space a consideration to them, but also the inventory cost of spare goods.


Of course that is the case - that is after all the fundamental principle around which market economics works.

However, it also means the solution is simple. We don't have to think of detailed ways for shifting goods around that may or may not be practical for particular companies and may or may not lead to the desired outcome. If we want to discourage a particular activity then increase the price of it - that way bean counters will seek ways to avoid it.

So in this case the way forward is road pricing. Increase the cost of moving stuff long distances by truck then other options will start to become competitive - whether that is sourcing stuff locally, greater warehousing, shifting most of the trip to rail or moving your operation to a rail freight hub. All these things cost money, but if shifting stuff by road costs more that will be worth their while.

merseymouth
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby merseymouth » 28 Feb 2020, 8:09am

Hi Bryn, You are quite correct about the succession of HGV's that use the UK as a conduit through to Ireland, and if Ms Sturgeon causs her fracture the same will apply to Scotland as well! One would think that there were no ports available for direct shipping?
Of course JIT loads get flagged up as an imperative, I call them WOT shipment, "Waste Of Time"!
Can't we get off the absolute consumerist carousel?
Even if not we should route loads in a far better way, after all wasn't that what Freeports where all about? MM

atlas_shrugged
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby atlas_shrugged » 28 Feb 2020, 12:54pm

The magnificent Swiss forced all through lorry traffic to go on trains and built at great expense tunnels through the Alps to help with this.

For whatever reason putting freight on rail in the UK is really expensive. Is this because of the unions, management, lack of rail investment, or all of those reasons?

The last I heard, rail were on their last warning with Royal Mail to improve their operation. I have no details of why or the result. An EW and NS container rail transport would make a lot of sense. If the magnificent Chinese can get a train all the way from China to the UK it must be possible for us in the UK to rail transport the last few miles. He said hopefully.

fullupandslowingdown
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adding HS5 to lower UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 28 Feb 2020, 1:14pm

So, in addition to HS2 we now need a freight only high speed railway straight across the country. should this be leased to the EU, with driving on the right and speed in kmh?

Smudgerii
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Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Smudgerii » 28 Feb 2020, 1:57pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Smudgerii wrote:The thing to remember is that everything we buy in the UK will have been moved by an HGV at some point in it’s journey within the UK.

With that in mind, how does the ‘railroad’ plan stack up?


You assume that since that is the way we do things now, then it is the only possible way of doing things.
But it is generally agreed that our present course is leading to climate disaster, and we shall have to do things differently in future.
We have to put a value on the things we are now destroying. This will change the economic considerations.
Unless, of course, we lack the imagination to avert disaster.


Please don’t tell me what I assume, you’re not qualified to.

What we do now is not what have done in the past, it will likely not be what we do in the future.

My question remains, how does the ‘railroad’ stack up when you compare it against the needs?

Smudgerii
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Joined: 10 Jul 2016, 8:41pm

Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Smudgerii » 28 Feb 2020, 2:01pm

Pete Owens wrote:
fullupandslowingdown wrote:Thing is that the bean counters don't look at the big picture. Not only is the warehousing space a consideration to them, but also the inventory cost of spare goods.


Of course that is the case - that is after all the fundamental principle around which market economics works.

However, it also means the solution is simple. We don't have to think of detailed ways for shifting goods around that may or may not be practical for particular companies and may or may not lead to the desired outcome. If we want to discourage a particular activity then increase the price of it - that way bean counters will seek ways to avoid it.

So in this case the way forward is road pricing. Increase the cost of moving stuff long distances by truck then other options will start to become competitive - whether that is sourcing stuff locally, greater warehousing, shifting most of the trip to rail or moving your operation to a rail freight hub. All these things cost money, but if shifting stuff by road costs more that will be worth their while.


Thats not how it works. The increased transport cost goes on the products retail price and the consumer pays. Only when the consumer ceases to purchase will change happen..

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Feb 2020, 2:29pm

Smudgerii wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Smudgerii wrote:The thing to remember is that everything we buy in the UK will have been moved by an HGV at some point in it’s journey within the UK.

With that in mind, how does the ‘railroad’ plan stack up?


You assume that since that is the way we do things now, then it is the only possible way of doing things.
But it is generally agreed that our present course is leading to climate disaster, and we shall have to do things differently in future.
We have to put a value on the things we are now destroying. This will change the economic considerations.
Unless, of course, we lack the imagination to avert disaster.


Please don’t tell me what I assume, you’re not qualified to.

What we do now is not what have done in the past, it will likely not be what we do in the future.

My question remains, how does the ‘railroad’ stack up when you compare it against the needs?


I can see you need to be given more detail.
There are costs to emitting CO2 which are not fully paid, so that it appears more economic (in the short run) to favour higher emitting modes. When these costs are accounted for the modes of transport which do less damage to the atmosphere will be a logical choice for (for instance) moving goods.
Your assumption, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, is that the present framework within which transport choices are made is immutable. If you understood that we can change this framework to produce less destructive results perhaps I have given you a hint as to how we can change.
There are other ways in which we are doing unsustainable damage to our environment, mass extinctions being one. If we cannot change the way we collectively make decisions then the race's future will be ended.

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Reducing UK HGV miles for loads resistant to rail container traffic?

Postby Mike Sales » 28 Feb 2020, 2:35pm

Smudgerii wrote:Thats not how it works. The increased transport cost goes on the products retail price and the consumer pays. Only when the consumer ceases to purchase will change happen..


The idea is that those goods which have a higher transport component in their price will tend to cost more than locally produced goods which cause lower CO2 emissions. The consumer can then choose on price.
Isn't that how it works?