Cycling UK campaign - Ask your council for cycle space during lockdown

[Si]

Good quality infra stops motor vehicles getting in amongst the cyclists, not the other way around.

[PH]

Councils are not really interested in cycling. There are no votes in it.

Not all councils, obviously
https://new.brighton-hove.gov.uk/news/2 ... d-cyclists

[GarethF]

I inadvertently found myself riding along a nice, relatively new 'infra' along the Great North Road in Gosforth last summer. "This is nice" I thought. A bit further on "Ooh look, there's a line of thin bollards, probably to stop cars parking in the cycle lane, and make sure nobody cuts into it at rush hour". Great innit? Except for later when it routes onto the pavement and around two bus stops because there's no longer space in the road. And then of course I realised that if I'm going at 15mph along the bollards bit and the cyclist in front is only doing 12 I've got no way of overtaking. Never mind the fact that it's unsafe for me to ride that fast amongst peds and dogs on long leads. So this kind of 'facility' is no good to me. AND if I ditch it in favour of the road I get to face the ire of disenchanted motorists who feel sore because the road space available to them is restricted "and why can't you use the bike lane?". In pursuing this trend we run the risk of becoming confined to what amounts to a ghetto. This is almost enough to make me cancel my subs.

IMHO it's driver behaviour, and a (overblown by the media) impression that cycling is somehow unsafe that makes folk who ought to know better ride on the pavement. This campaign isn't the solution because the lack of segregated lanes is not the problem. Driver behaviour needs to change, perhaps by means of significantly more robust enforcement of the law. Or possibly some proactive engagement and education for drivers. Surely there has never been a better time for this either?

[mjr]

[...] put a line of cones to prevent responsible cyclists riding away from the edge - Yet this is exactly what CUK is promoting:

They're flipping cones, not forcefield generators. You can ride between them if you need more width.

I agree that the example looks too narrow for a two-way cycle lane, but I've written on here many times in the past that CUK's website editors seem to use "nearly" photos a lot.

And a useful campaign during the pandemic would be for cycle lanes to be designated for exclusive pedestrian use for the duration. Cyclists should be asked to ride well out in the carriageway - and if the all-important motorists are held up for a few seconds then so be it.

That sounds like an excellent way to reverse the growth in cycling we've seen in recent weeks. Narrow the carriageways and widen the cycleways would be far far better.

So this kind of 'facility' is no good to me. AND if I ditch it in favour of the road I get to face the ire of disenchanted motorists who feel sore because the road space available to them is restricted "and why can't you use the bike lane?". In pursuing this trend we run the risk of becoming confined to what amounts to a ghetto. This is almost enough to make me cancel my subs.

I believe that motorist ire is more strongly correlated with cyclist rarity than cycleway availability. I can't be the only person who's had "use the bike path" shouts even when there is no bike path. The far bigger risk is that there might soon not be enough cyclists to oppose attempts to ban us from roads - and not only roads which have alternatives: Highways England East have tried to ban cycling from far more of their roads than they've proposed building even crap cycleways alongside.

Yes, we need motoring laws enforced too, but that doesn't mean that we don't also need protected (not segregated) space to encourage more riders. Induced traffic works both ways: reduce space for motoring to reduce motoring, but increase space for cycling to increase cycling.

[PH]

. And then of course I realised that if I'm going at 15mph along the bollards bit and the cyclist in front is only doing 12 I've got no way of overtaking.

That reads exactly like the many motorists who moan about being delayed by a cyclist. What's the harm in riding at 12 mph till an overtaking opportunity arises? It's one minute a mile difference and a mile is an unusually long distance not to have an opportunity to get past. Even two or three miles isn't going to make a huge difference to your journey time, you could save your energy and blast along at 20 mph when it's clear.
The roads are public spaces, they're never going to be assigned in such a way as everyone is happy, I have no problem with occasionally being inconvenienced for the greater good.

[Phil Fouracre]

Interesting! I think that ‘public spaces’, and ‘the greater good’ are always going to be trumped by ‘me, me, me!’ and ‘because I’m worth it’ attitudes! Doesn’t matter what vehicle some are in control of, it just doesn’t compute that they should make adjustments/allowances for anyone else - ever! The world would be such a much better place if everyone just thought just a little about other people occasionally. Maybe things will be different after the current catastrophe?

[Pete Owens]

. And then of course I realised that if I'm going at 15mph along the bollards bit and the cyclist in front is only doing 12 I've got no way of overtaking.

That reads exactly like the many motorists who moan about being delayed by a cyclist. What's the harm in riding at 12 mph till an overtaking opportunity arises? It's one minute a mile difference and a mile is an unusually long distance not to have an opportunity to get past. Even two or three miles isn't going to make a huge difference to your journey time, you could save your energy and blast along at 20 mph when it's clear.
The roads are public spaces, they're never going to be assigned in such a way as everyone is happy, I have no problem with occasionally being inconvenienced for the greater good.

Both of you are missing the point.
Whatever the hazards and inconvenience of using this sort of cycleway in normal times (And you certainly shouldn't be attempting to ride though a bus stop at 12mph let alone blasting through at 15 even if it has been designated as a cycleway), during the pandemic we should not be riding there at all. In order to stay safe we need to maintain social distancing - this means not riding on or close to the pavement. Which in turn means avoiding pretty much all cycle lanes and paths for the duration,

[Si]

Both the photos in the OP are a lane wide so there should be no issue with moving away from the pavement. The other photo that was there before showed IIRC a temporary cycle lane marked with cones, thus any cyclist who wanted to move away from the pavement just checks over their shoulder and nips through the cones into the next 'lane' just as they would if there was no cycle lane there at all. Overtaking other cyclists can work in a similar way.

I agree that some of our crappier infra (such as narrow shared use pavements) will cause problems with distancing (just as they would cause problems for two peds passing). But I don't think that people are calling for crappy infra. I did both of the blue routes in Birmingham today and had no more problems with distancing than I did on the road bits, and it certainly felt safer than being on the A38 and A34 dual carriageways with the boy racers.

As an aside, I noticed something interesting: on the road I've had several joggers launch themselves off the pavement in front of me over the last few weeks - they appear to be trying to distance themselves from other pavement users and assuming its safe to go into the road as they can't hear cars coming. On the segregated cycle paths I found that the joggers were much more likely to look before leaping - perhaps they are expecting cyclists to be there and so check for them.

[pedals2slowly]

Nope, still not of interest here, we don't need more space, there's plenty.
Lots of extra people out on their bikes, probably much better to spend time and effort properly training people on bicycles and people in motor vehicles to use the same space safely.
There will never be separate cycle facilities down narrow streets of terraced houses, along narrow roads with shops all along them, so cyclists need to have confidence to ride assertively and feel safe everywhere and not be restricted to the minority of roads with cycle facilities.
New towns, new estates, new retail parks and big cities fair enough but one size does not fit all.

[PH]

Nope, still not of interest here, we don't need more space, there's plenty.

Who's this we? And who appointed you to speak for them?
Really doesn't matter what you or I think, if those who will cycle if facilities are in place won't if they're not, telling them what you think they need is pointless. Some have been telling them that for decades and it's made no difference.

[pedals2slowly]

Who's this we? And who appointed you to speak for them?

This 'we' is me, who CUK is requesting to ask for more cycle space during lockdown.

Nobody is appointed to speak for them, wherein lies one of the problems with the current campaigns network, no vetting process nor election of officers fill in a form and away you go. This results in a very wide range of people becoming CUK campaigners, the loner who consults no-one, the outright anti-motorist, the activist intent on disenfranchising the local CUK members etc.

I'm on the local campaigning coalition of cycling groups, I've been a campaigner here for 30+ years, we've been unable to meet due to Covid-19 but have 'discussed' this initiative by email. My statement here is not me representing anyone, it's my personal view, which others share in our situation.

It does matter what I think because I have influence, and I will use that to channel local effort into what I (and others) think are more beneficial methods of getting bums on bikes. I'm not going to brag to challenge your adversarial approach.

The (IMHO) fact remains cycle space during lockdown is an irrelevance here.

[PH]

The (IMHO) fact remains cycle space during lockdown is an irrelevance here.

We disagree with you, the we being just about everyone.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52524807

[Wanlock Dod]

Nope, still not of interest here, we don't need more space, there's plenty.
Lots of extra people out on their bikes, probably much better to spend time and effort properly training people on bicycles and people in motor vehicles to use the same space safely.
There will never be separate cycle facilities down narrow streets of terraced houses, along narrow roads with shops all along them, so cyclists need to have confidence to ride assertively and feel safe everywhere and not be restricted to the minority of roads with cycle facilities.
New towns, new estates, new retail parks and big cities fair enough but one size does not fit all.

Is anybody actually calling for separate cycling facilities on the minor roads, shopping areas, or residential streets? As far as I can see people are calling for separate cycling facilities, or at least a greater degree of segregation than is afforded by paint alone, on the main roads that have high volumes of fast traffic at the best of times. Let’s not overlook the fact that plenty of sources are suggesting that on average traffic speeds have generally been higher in many previously congested areas and that is generally not beneficial for cyclist safety.

Do you not think that segregation is appropriate on main roads?

[mjr]

There will never be separate cycle facilities down narrow streets of terraced houses,

No, but they can be 20mph access-only no-through-motors.

along narrow roads with shops all along them, so cyclists need to have confidence to ride assertively and feel safe everywhere and not be restricted to the minority of roads with cycle facilities.

Do you really believe it's mainly the fault of new cyclists not being assertive?

New towns, new estates, new retail parks and big cities fair enough but one size does not fit all.

Doing those to consistent decent standards would be a good start.

[mjr]

Do you not think that segregation is appropriate on main roads?

No. Protection not segregation. If we didn't have so many options to move right onto a carriageway lane and back left onto the cycleway later, the current social distance would be much harder to maintain!