Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Tinpotflowers
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Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Tinpotflowers » 3 May 2020, 2:04pm

Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90


https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonrei ... c8159f1cc3

Some comment that may be of interest

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=115460.0

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Slowroad » 4 May 2020, 8:30pm

An interesting read, thanks for sharing.
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horizon
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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby horizon » 4 May 2020, 9:57pm

I think it's a shame when the better solution has only one leading advocate. The bit I find most telling is

. . . would mean compulsion to use such amenities, slowing cyclists, and thereby killing off transportation cycling,


Cycling on anything other than roads is very slow and on shared paths laughable. For me, to see cyclists pushed off roads rather than cars is one of the saddest aspects of the modern world.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby mjr » 4 May 2020, 10:13pm

horizon wrote:Cycling on anything other than roads is very slow and on shared paths laughable. For me, to see cyclists pushed off roads rather than cars is one of the saddest aspects of the modern world.

It doesn't have to be. It just often is in backwards motor-mad countries. Good cycleways are just roads closed to motorists.

RIP Mr Forester nonetheless.
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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Wanlock Dod » 5 May 2020, 8:10am

horizon wrote:I think it's a shame when the better solution has only one leading advocate. The bit I find most telling is

. . . would mean compulsion to use such amenities, slowing cyclists, and thereby killing off transportation cycling,


Cycling on anything other than roads is very slow and on shared paths laughable. For me, to see cyclists pushed off roads rather than cars is one of the saddest aspects of the modern world.


Could you please provide an example of where this has actually happened?

Vehicular cycling certainly hasn’t brought about mass utility cycling in anywhere that I am familiar with.

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Cyril Haearn » 5 May 2020, 8:22am

I am a very experienced cyclist, used to cycle on A-roads in the 1970s
I am too **** terrified to cycle on motor roads at all now
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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby horizon » 5 May 2020, 12:29pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
horizon wrote:I think it's a shame when the better solution has only one leading advocate. The bit I find most telling is

. . . would mean compulsion to use such amenities, slowing cyclists, and thereby killing off transportation cycling,


Cycling on anything other than roads is very slow and on shared paths laughable. For me, to see cyclists pushed off roads rather than cars is one of the saddest aspects of the modern world.


Could you please provide an example of where this has actually happened?

Vehicular cycling certainly hasn’t brought about mass utility cycling in anywhere that I am familiar with.


Plymouth is a good example. I used to cycle a lot around the city centre. This was more or less never on the roads (and that for me as a road cyclist is anathema) and always on the pavements. Pavement cycling in Plymouth is completely tolerated (I frequently ask policemen), apart of course on the many shared paths where it is in any case legally allowed. The roads OTOH are completely unrestructured 1960s style race tracks, even after recent road works. The older roads (such as Mutley Plain) are very narrow urban dual carriageways. I value my life and don't intend to take on the blindly immoral stance of the local council to make a point.

The net result is slow cycling amongst pedestrians (whose rights I respect), an unpleasant and polluted city, little take up of cycling as a means of transport, an unhealthy population and a city centre crushed and strangled by roads and car parks. Vehicular cycling would have changed all that.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby profpointy » 5 May 2020, 2:06pm

Having had (only) a quick read of those articles about him, I'm inclined to agree with him.
My experience of UK cycle lanes, is that they make the safe bit of road slower, and the "dangerous" bits a lot more dangerous

I realise they (seem to) work in the Netherlands, but even there, I wonder if they just force pesky cyclists off the road and out of the way of cars.
With that number of cyclists, on the road, or off it, I reckon cycling would be OK.


I don't mind being disagreed with but fully expect to be shouted down with venom and hatred presently

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby mikeymo » 5 May 2020, 4:34pm

Does anybody have any experience of cycling in Milton Keynes?

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby FOSS62 » 5 May 2020, 5:56pm

profpointy wrote:Having had (only) a quick read of those articles about him, I'm inclined to agree with him.
My experience of UK cycle lanes, is that they make the safe bit of road slower, and the "dangerous" bits a lot more dangerous

I realise they (seem to) work in the Netherlands, but even there, I wonder if they just force pesky cyclists off the road and out of the way of cars.
With that number of cyclists, on the road, or off it, I reckon cycling would be OK.


I don't mind being disagreed with but fully expect to be shouted down with venom and hatred presently


I completely agree. On my 10 mile commute from South to North Cambridge the cycleways can be terrifying and in some places they have reduced the width of the road so much that it makes it appear antisocial to cycle on it.

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Wanlock Dod » 5 May 2020, 7:13pm

horizon wrote:Pavement cycling in Plymouth is completely tolerated (I frequently ask policemen), apart of course on the many shared paths where it is in any case legally allowed. The roads OTOH are completely unrestructured 1960s style race tracks, even after recent road works. The older roads (such as Mutley Plain) are very narrow urban dual carriageways. I value my life and don't intend to take on the blindly immoral stance of the local council to make a point.

The net result is slow cycling amongst pedestrians (whose rights I respect), an unpleasant and polluted city, little take up of cycling as a means of transport, an unhealthy population and a city centre crushed and strangled by roads and car parks. Vehicular cycling would have changed all that.

I’m really not convinced that shared use pavements, or tolerance of pavement cycling, are the kinds of infrastructure that he was objecting to though were they. As far as I can tell his principal objection was to the kind of segregated infrastructure that is used alongside major roads in The Netherlands, and the use of those paths is indeed mandatory for cyclists. In my experience they make for fairly efficient riding because they follow direct routes that lots of people want to travel. The main inconvenience is traffic lights on some of the routes, but certainly not all of them. Keeping bikes and cars separate probably makes cycling safer and driving faster when the roads are very busy.

In contrast, the situation that you describe seems to be not bothering to provide for cyclists at all.

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby Mike Sales » 5 May 2020, 7:26pm

If the only experience of cycle facilities a cyclist has is British, they are entirely justified in regarding segregation with deep suspicion.

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby mjr » 5 May 2020, 7:42pm

mikeymo wrote:Does anybody have any experience of cycling in Milton Keynes?

Yes. I grew up riding there. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/proj/cyclynn/redways
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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby mikeymo » 5 May 2020, 8:04pm

mjr wrote:
mikeymo wrote:Does anybody have any experience of cycling in Milton Keynes?

Yes. I grew up riding there. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/proj/cyclynn/redways


Great, thanks for that, and the very informative analysis.

I asked principally because my single experience of driving in Milton Keynes was so positive. I used to work in theatres a lot. Trying to find the stage door/scene dock of an old theatre in an old town you don't know is horrible. Try to find the load-in at Blackpool Grand for instance, and you'll appreciate quite how good Paul Matthews' drivers are. So when I did MK Theatre once and the sat nav announced "you have reached your destination" I assumed it must be wrong - what no hideous one way system, no horrible back alleys, free parking a very short distance away? All of which maybe supports the idea that MK was designed around the car, as opposed to the horse and cart, which is what most of our older cities were "designed" around. But at least MK was, at least in part, "designed".

You say - "Please use the redways as an example of how bad things can get if you provide half a network and don't pay enough attention to the junctions, but not as an argument against all bike-only roads." Which I suppose is an answer to John Forester's idea.

Transport structures vary. Segregated will be good/possible in some places, not in others. Motorways are segregated, and are safer than other roads for those that use them.

There's a lot of cycle infrastructure going on in Leeds. Interestingly a whole load round the northern ring road, which has very wide verges in places. We nearly bought a house there 25 years ago. Everybody said - "don't do it, they're going to widen the ring road right there". Well "right there" is now cycle path (or it will be when they get the tarmac on it). So in at least one spot space previously destined for cars has been given to bikes, and segregated space at that. And a good thing too.

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Re: Death of A ‘Dinosaur:’ Anti-Cycleway Campaigner John Forester Dies, Aged 90

Postby FOSS62 » 5 May 2020, 8:17pm

mjr wrote:
horizon wrote:Cycling on anything other than roads is very slow and on shared paths laughable. For me, to see cyclists pushed off roads rather than cars is one of the saddest aspects of the modern world.

It doesn't have to be. It just often is in backwards motor-mad countries. Good cycleways are just roads closed to motorists.

RIP Mr Forester nonetheless.


Do ‘roads closed to motorists’ make good cycleways? They might in very rural locations, but anywhere at all busy they just seem to result in a free for all, with pedestrians and many cyclists behaving in ways that they wouldn’t contemplate if on a ‘real’ road. I have a hard time maintaining good progress whilst feeling safe in these environments.