Escooter trial to start

Xbigman
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Joined: 16 Sep 2019, 6:39pm

Escooter trial to start

Postby Xbigman » 19 May 2020, 3:38pm

The details are out.
I've argued that e scooters don't have a place anywhere for the last 18 months. But the world changed, people need to get to work, and here they are.

Banned from pavements. Limited to 12.5 MPH on the road. Max 350w motor. No helmet or training required.

Banned from pavements.
Well they had to be, didn't they. That said these things are very low visibility on the road and are a whole magnitude more dangerous than a bicycle.
Good luck.

Limited to 12.5 MPH on the road.
All the ones I've seen brake only off the back wheel so that still seems a bit high. However there is a correlation between accidents and speed differential. Women, who generally ride slower than men, have proportionately more accidents. 12.5 MPH looks like a compromise speed to me. A bit fast for the vehicles restrictions whilst a bit slow for the road. I've said something similar about my ebike. 15.5 is too fast for shared paths and too slow for the road, so also a compromise speed. That e scooter limit looks a bigger compromise to me.

Max 350w motor.
The DM article makes the point that this is bigger than an ebike, missing the point that the ebike also has the power the rider adds as well as gears. 350w looks about right to me. The downside is that escooters have smaller batteries than an ebike and with a 350w motor range will be less than 10 miles. That also looks about right. Having to stand to the side slightly means any journey longer than 4 or 5 miles is going to be pretty uncomfortable.

No helmet or training.
I'll leave the arguments about helmets for another day except to say I'm against any compulsory helmets and if no escooter helmets stops talk of bicycles needing helmets I'm all for it.
The DM article has a response about a five year old being able to ride a scooter. That's not true when its on the road. A 5 year old certainly doesn't know what the primary road position (etc) is. I think it should be made clear that escooters need to obey the rules of the road the same as everyone else. But no compulsory training is right, same as a bicycle.


Darren

Xbigman
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Joined: 16 Sep 2019, 6:39pm

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby Xbigman » 19 May 2020, 3:39pm

One extra thought. If masses of escooters on the road means more cycle lanes (segregated of course) then that would be good.


Darren

mercalia
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby mercalia » 19 May 2020, 4:24pm

where are the details from?

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby kwackers » 19 May 2020, 9:55pm

Shame I'm not commuting to work still - I'd pick one up for the train.
Far less hassle than a bike and no dirty looks from commuters as you're trying to get it on and off past them in their suits and dresses.

<edit>
The Googling I've done suggests that far from being nationwide it's only in 4 areas and private e-scooters would still be illegal.
I find the last bit odd - why is a rental scooter legal and a private one not?

hemo
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby hemo » 19 May 2020, 11:28pm

Provisional or full UK licence is required.

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mjr
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby mjr » 19 May 2020, 11:42pm

mercalia wrote:where are the details from?

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... ter-trials
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

hemo
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby hemo » 19 May 2020, 11:45pm

kwackers wrote:Shame I'm not commuting to work still - I'd pick one up for the train.
Far less hassle than a bike and no dirty looks from commuters as you're trying to get it on and off past them in their suits and dresses.

<edit>
The Googling I've done suggests that far from being nationwide it's only in 4 areas and private e-scooters would still be illegal.
I find the last bit odd - why is a rental scooter legal and a private one not?


The private owned/bought e scooters will have no third party insurance which the hire scheme will have in place also current e scooters sold aren't restricted to 350w and some can easily exceed 20mph.
Generally this isn't going to be policed very well except maybe in the larger cities and mayhem will ensue once the illegals get going for real on the pavements.

Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby Pete Owens » 20 May 2020, 12:42am

Xbigman wrote:The details are out.
I've argued that e scooters don't have a place anywhere for the last 18 months. But the world changed, people need to get to work, and here they are.

Banned from pavements. Limited to 12.5 MPH on the road. Max 350w motor. No helmet or training required.

Banned from pavements.
Well they had to be, didn't they. That said these things are very low visibility on the road and are a whole magnitude more dangerous than a bicycle.
Good luck.

I'm not sure visibility is an issue - at least during daylight hours. In either case it is the rider rather than the vehicle that is thing you see - and standing up on a scooter probably presents a greater cross section than leant forwards over a bikes handlebars. Lighting will be tricky at night. In terms of danger to pedestrians the speed and thus potential for damage is similar - so quite right to ban from pavements.
Limited to 12.5 MPH on the road.
All the ones I've seen brake only off the back wheel so that still seems a bit high.

I would agree on the speed issue.
And actually front wheel braking wouldn't be safe. The combination of the high centre of gravity of the rider not far behind a very small wheel means very little breaking force would be needed to tip the rider over the front. These things of necessity will have very poor braking so cannot be allowed to go fast.

There is also the issue of steering the thing with just a handlebar on a long stick attached to a small wheel. We steer bikes by leaning - not be turning the handlebars. I'm really not sure these things would be stable at speed.
However there is a correlation between accidents and speed differential. Women, who generally ride slower than men, have proportionately more accidents.

This simply isn't true. Women tend to have fewer crashes than men - absolute speed is far more important than speed differential so slower cyclists are safer just as slower drivers are.
12.5 MPH looks like a compromise speed to me. A bit fast for the vehicles restrictions whilst a bit slow for the road.

That is faster than I usually ride on the road (unless I'm going down hill) and much faster than I would ride on a cycle path or an urban road with parked cars, pedestrians crossing, turning vehicles and so on. The hazards are mostly in front of you so slowing your speed makes you safer. Even the problems with traffic coming from behind are usually caused by drivers underestimating our speed - and hence the amount of road they need to overtake.
I've said something similar about my ebike. 15.5 is too fast for shared paths and too slow for the road, so also a compromise speed. That e scooter limit looks a bigger compromise to me.

Way too fast for shared paths - absolutely fine on clear roads.
Max 350w motor.
The DM article makes the point that this is bigger than an ebike, missing the point that the ebike also has the power the rider adds as well as gears. 350w looks about right to me. The downside is that escooters have smaller batteries than an ebike and with a 350w motor range will be less than 10 miles. That also looks about right. Having to stand to the side slightly means any journey longer than 4 or 5 miles is going to be pretty uncomfortable.

I think it has more to do with the weight. They are talking about 35kg machines which probably means they are thinking of bigger batteries.
No helmet or training.
I'll leave the arguments about helmets for another day except to say I'm against any compulsory helmets and if no escooter helmets stops talk of bicycles needing helmets I'm all for it.
The DM article has a response about a five year old being able to ride a scooter. That's not true when its on the road. A 5 year old certainly doesn't know what the primary road position (etc) is. I think it should be made clear that escooters need to obey the rules of the road the same as everyone else. But no compulsory training is right, same as a bicycle.

I think the idea is that you will need a provisional drivers licence and insurance - basically the same as for a 50cc moped. Knowing about primary and secondary road positions is not essential, but you do need to understand the difference between left and right (which is beyond many 5yos) and know the rules of the road.

kwackers
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby kwackers » 20 May 2020, 9:42am

Pete Owens wrote:I would agree on the speed issue.
And actually front wheel braking wouldn't be safe. The combination of the high centre of gravity of the rider not far behind a very small wheel means very little breaking force would be needed to tip the rider over the front. These things of necessity will have very poor braking so cannot be allowed to go fast.

Have you ever ridden one? The brakes aren't that bad.
A lot do have front brakes and most of the common "proper" ones use the front hub motor for regen braking.
I've ridden one with front brakes and I've never come close to tipping it over, all that happens is the front wheel locks. As you brake you naturally lean back.
Bicycles are just as prone to tipping, in fact I use to rely on my panniers to help prevent it! Neither scoots or bikes have much to shout about when it comes to high C of G (I can even tip my motorcycle and that weighs 240Kg! - although fortunately modulating the brakes simply keeps the rear off the floor rather than me ending up on my noggin).

Pete Owens wrote:There is also the issue of steering the thing with just a handlebar on a long stick attached to a small wheel. We steer bikes by leaning - not be turning the handlebars. I'm really not sure these things would be stable at speed.

You can't go round corners on a scooter without leaning - it's impossible. Bikes and scoots both steer by weight shift, in both cases the wheel only turns at very low speeds.
And again, they're fine at speed. Certainly the ones I've tried and a quick look on YouTube will show you some doing up to 60mph - if they can do 60 I'm pretty sure 12.5 is no biggie.
I think the idea is that you will need a provisional drivers licence and insurance - basically the same as for a 50cc moped. Knowing about primary and secondary road positions is not essential, but you do need to understand the difference between left and right (which is beyond many 5yos) and know the rules of the road.

I think the drivers license is pointless. You don't need one for a bicycle which is faster, why do you need one for a scooter?

Overall as usual it's a hotch potch of nonsense.
Just simplify the whole small e-transport thing and stop introducing layer upon layer of crap.
It's not hard. Remove the need to peddle on an e-bike and then make everything fall into the same place.

End result:
An easy to understand system that doesn't need layer upon layer of legislation for every variant that pops up.

mercalia
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Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby mercalia » 20 May 2020, 9:53am

just saw a lady on one zip along my road. I cant wait to get one. Could be the way to get rid of all cars from ( central) London streets, even no need for buses or taxies, leave the road for bikes and scooters? well I can dream

roberts8
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Location: Surrey

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby roberts8 » 20 May 2020, 11:43am

A few people round here have E scooters with quite large chunky tyres that do not look much smaller than some folders. One came past us yesterday at a pretty fair pace, certainly 30mph and with the larger wheels looked quite stable. Considering we all have third party insurance it would make sense that scooters and all cyclists had to be able to show proof of insurance as we can and that would remove a constant moan against cyclists and scooters. My neighbor who has one is six foot plus and when standing on his scooter is way more visible than me on my bike so I think there is a place for them but the problem will be lack of policing by the reaction we get from complaints here in the surrey hills. This weekend again we will be subject to motorbikes going very fast through lanes and villages with little reaction from the police so scooters obeying the Highway Code and travelling silently at 30 would be far more welcome than what we will be getting.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby Jdsk » 20 May 2020, 11:52am

roberts8 wrote:A few people round here have E scooters with quite large chunky tyres that do not look much smaller than some folders. One came past us yesterday at a pretty fair pace, certainly 30mph and with the larger wheels looked quite stable. Considering we all have third party insurance it would make sense that scooters and all cyclists had to be able to show proof of insurance as we can and that would remove a constant moan against cyclists and scooters.

Who's the "we", please?

Jonathan

roberts8
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Location: Surrey

Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby roberts8 » 20 May 2020, 12:13pm

Members of Cycling Uk.

Jdsk
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby Jdsk » 20 May 2020, 12:16pm

Thanks

Jonathan

tatanab
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Postby tatanab » 20 May 2020, 12:27pm

roberts8 wrote: it would make sense that scooters and all cyclists had to be able to show proof of insurance
You want a 13 year old to have compulsory 3rd party insurance to ride to school, and a 10 year old to play on his bike in a quiet street? Same if that 10 year old has an electric scooter. I don't think parents will fall for that.