The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

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[XAP]Bob
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The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby [XAP]Bob » 14 Jun 2020, 2:55pm

“If people reject a design, even months after it has been installed, then it’s poo design”

A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

reohn2
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2020, 3:42pm

And that's Copenhagen bad,should make a similar vdeo of any bad cycle design in the UK it would show ours to be a million times worse :?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby [XAP]Bob » 14 Jun 2020, 5:46pm

More to the point - even in Copenhagen they get it wrong, and you'd expect the people making the decisions to *be* cyclists...
Clearly just being a cyclist doesn't translate to being able to tell if a design will work when it's on paper.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

reohn2
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2020, 6:00pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:More to the point - even in Copenhagen they get it wrong, and you'd expect the people making the decisions to *be* cyclists...
Clearly just being a cyclist doesn't translate to being able to tell if a design will work when it's on paper.

Agreed.
The sliding bridge design and idiot's wet dream AFAICS.

PS,there was a mayor of London once who......
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Brucey
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby Brucey » 14 Jun 2020, 6:53pm

I watched the video and I thought that the first bridge didn't look that much steeper than another one that was meant to be 'OK' and that the project management and the design were two separate issues. The common feature of both (and the faults with other bridges) was that they were all signed off by the city council.

In any bit of civic architecture of that sort there will be competing tenders and designs; 'radical sells' and so does 'cheap' and the result is often overruns and technical teething problems. If these get bad enough then the tendering organisation goes bust which might be what happened here. Once the bridge has been up and working for a few years both are usually forgotten. In this case that may not be true because of the stupid arrangement with the chicanes. Rear wheel skids are virtually guaranteed if you allow folk to ride around on shonky bikes with only one brake, a coaster on the rear wheel; they are not safe by any measure; they also make the bridge look worse than it probably is, really. The gradients/corners involved would presumably barely pass comment elsewhere, but somewhere as flat as Denmark they'd look like mountainous hairpin bends.

FWIW the 'underused bridge' looked about half as busy as the one that was 'at capacity' even though they'd presumably chosen a time of day when the first bridge was unlikely to see much traffic in the more useful direction. If I understand it correctly problems with the access to other areas for one of the bridges are either to do with those areas (if a whole area is cobbled, you have to ride over cobbles to get into it, surely...?) and/or to do with other bits of cycle infrastructure a distance away from the bridge; in both cases you would hardly modify those things prior to building the bridge....?

So it is easy to be critical but I don't think things are as bad as are portrayed; maybe they have different expectations, but in lots of other places that would look like relatively good provision.

cheers
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atlas_shrugged
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby atlas_shrugged » 14 Jun 2020, 7:25pm

C-A should come to Cranebridge. He would have a field day. But the bridges would need a new hashtag e.g. #stupidstupidstupid

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby [XAP]Bob » 14 Jun 2020, 7:52pm

The middle one wasn’t a bad bridge per se. It was just crossing the river at a point already served by a bridge just up the road.

The access and egress from the first bridge look pretty much like “first class” UK design - the concept of needing warning signs, and still surprising many cyclists each day is pretty poor.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Tangled Metal
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jun 2020, 11:16pm

Come to Lancaster and enjoy the millennium bridge. Was it completed by the millennium?

A mate worked for the company that made the sections then on the site near the final location where they put it together before craning the sections into place. I got a lot of inside study of what went on. IIRC the M&E subcontractor did some work and expected to be paid. Lead contractor didn't so subcontractor went bust. Lead contractor decided they could do n few work. They couldn't so had to get someone in, not hard when you're rep had gone South.

Cue a long delay with nothing happening, my mate got a lucrative job elsewhere for several months but eventually went back when they got their act together. Running very late the lead contractor engineers decided that the main span was originally designed to be done in three pieces but they could weld two together and get some time back. So they welded them up along the quay from the bridge on a supporting frame. Another long delay and the now longer section sank in the middle.

Eventually they got everything in place and had the big opening ceremony. It's a functional bridge but the architect and city council were wanting a potentially award winning bridge. What they got was a noticeable dip in the main span. They also got a bridge surface that's a bit slippy, a few defects that had to be fixed several months later and an exit of the bridge into the quay cycle routes. The turn along to the quay was on large, historical, stone flags. Woah what a slippy surface when wet. Lancaster is often wet. Last summer IIRC they resurfaced that area with brick blocks. It's no longer as slippy but it took so long time to sort out.

Oh, nearly forgot. In the bridge to have to turn off the main span to take the side branch to the quay. It's effectively a non perpendicular t junction on a bridge. Going towards it on the bridge you have to really slow down and often end up crossing the path of other users. Entering the main span from it you often have to stop at busy times.

These are all the incompetencies of mixed use infrastructure in the UK. Bad design with shortcuts and bankrupt sub contractors to boot.

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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 15 Jun 2020, 10:42am

Hi,
Nothing more to add there is there really.
The best bridge is probably the ones that go up and over, With no stupid junctions at either end.
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jun 2020, 11:22am

Standardised module bridges would be much better, boring too :wink:
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squeaker
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby squeaker » 15 Jun 2020, 3:53pm

What! None of them were dynamically unstable :shock: Must try harder :roll: :lol:
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atlas_shrugged
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby atlas_shrugged » 15 Jun 2020, 4:47pm

I have never really understood all this faffing around with bridges.

My Uncle stuck one in in the Netherlands and I think it took them about 24 hours to do it. The bridge had to take tanks and they were at risk of being under fire at any time.

It was the one near Arnhem in the 1940s.

Bailey bridges are pretty good and the new ones can be man handled with I think 4 people.

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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby mjr » 15 Jun 2020, 4:55pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:My Uncle stuck one in in the Netherlands and I think it took them about 24 hours to do it. The bridge had to take tanks and they were at risk of being under fire at any time.

It was the one near Arnhem in the 1940s.

The one that had to be replaced because it was too low for ships to pass under? It was a great thing in the context but not really comparable!
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jun 2020, 5:03pm

mjr wrote:
atlas_shrugged wrote:My Uncle stuck one in in the Netherlands and I think it took them about 24 hours to do it. The bridge had to take tanks and they were at risk of being under fire at any time.

It was the one near Arnhem in the 1940s.

The one that had to be replaced because it was too low for ships to pass under? It was a great thing in the context but not really comparable!

An even bigger design flaw then?

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Re: The unholy trinity of bridge stupidity...

Postby atlas_shrugged » 15 Jun 2020, 8:14pm

The right stuff (the video is silent):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ0s2sL8t28

Bailey bridge construction. Done under shell fire too.