Covid & 'Groups'

Paul Fenton
Posts: 4
Joined: 19 Jun 2020, 3:07pm

Covid & 'Groups'

Postby Paul Fenton » 19 Jun 2020, 3:57pm

Question: Is a breach of the CUK group's Indemnity Insurance created if a CUK member of that group attends a CUK group meeting at the appointed destination travelling independently by cycle, i.e. he/she joins the gathering of a club ride at say a coffee stop having made their own way there and home independently, i.e not by riding with the group? Assume that any group gathering shall not exceed 6 in number, i.e if more than 6 turn up groups are subdivided so as to form additional groups.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15822
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby mjr » 19 Jun 2020, 6:53pm

How would it?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
TrevA
Posts: 2454
Joined: 1 Jun 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby TrevA » 21 Jun 2020, 3:34pm

CUK insurance only applies whilst you are riding. Who you meet and where, when you take a break from riding in not relevant. We had 12 people on our Covid meet up last Wednesday, but we were socially distant at the cafe stop and rode there and back in ones and twos.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15822
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby mjr » 21 Jun 2020, 5:41pm

TrevA wrote:CUK insurance only applies whilst you are riding. Who you meet and where, when you take a break from riding in not relevant. We had 12 people on our Covid meet up last Wednesday, but we were socially distant at the cafe stop and rode there and back in ones and twos.

I thought you were only allowed 6, even socially distant?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 14005
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, lorry park of England

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby gaz » 21 Jun 2020, 10:47pm

Paul Fenton wrote:Question: Is a breach of the CUK group's Indemnity Insurance created if a CUK member of that group attends a CUK group meeting at the appointed destination travelling independently by cycle, ...

You'll probably get a few more opinions expressed here, that's all they'll be and it would be unwise to rely upon them. If you want a definitive answer contact Cycling UK, although I doubt that they'll provide one.

Please note that gaz is not FCA regulated and cannot assess individual needs for insurance. You will not receive advice or recommendations from gaz about them. Please direct your queries to your chosen insurance provider, who may be either vaguely reassuring or reassuringly vague in their response (wonderful phrase, my thanks to mjr for providing it on another thread). Hand wash only. Do not iron. Your home may be at risk if you leave the gas on whilst on an appropriately distanced Cycling UK Group ride. Posted on a forum that contains track nuts and cannot be guaranteed track nut free.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

AndyK
Posts: 885
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby AndyK » 22 Jun 2020, 10:27am

mjr wrote:
TrevA wrote:CUK insurance only applies whilst you are riding. Who you meet and where, when you take a break from riding in not relevant. We had 12 people on our Covid meet up last Wednesday, but we were socially distant at the cafe stop and rode there and back in ones and twos.

I thought you were only allowed 6, even socially distant?

That's right. That's got nothing to do with CUK insurance, it's just plain against the law at the moment. TrevA seems to be telling us that his group took great pains to be both safe and legal on the way to the coffee stop and back, then - weirdly - blew it completely at the coffee stop by gathering in a single group of 12. (I'll assume "cafe stop" meant "takeaway coffee stop", 'cos if they sat down at a cafe then both the group and the cafe were breaking the law.)

Coming back to the OP, I don't understand the question. There's obviously a story behind it, so perhaps it would help if he told us that.

The only way I can make sense of the question is if the newcomer takes the total over 6.

Suppose an organised group of 6 goes out, led by a registered ride leader (included in the 6). That's the maximum group size allowed under English Covid-19 restrictions, and it's the responsibility of the ride leader to make sure that the ride is conducted in accordance with the law of the land, as well as CUK guidelines.

Halfway round they stop for a takeaway coffee and sit on the village green with their drinks, in a socially-distanced group.

Another CUK member, perhaps one who couldn't get onto the ride because of the number restriction, rides out separately with the intention of meeting them. He grabs a coffee and wanders over to sit down with them for a chat.

At that point the ride leader has a problem. The leader has a duty of care towards the other riders in the group, who can reasonably expect that the leader will not take them into a situation where they are knowingly breaking the law.

Yet they have all just become part of an illegal gathering.

If I were the ride leader, I would be put in an awkward position and would feel obliged to do something about it. Assuming the newcomer has turned up without prior warning, I'd ask that person to go and sit somewhere else.

Firmly.

Probably using some short words.

If I were in a good mood and if the newcomer had told us in advance that he would be present at the stop, I might suggest that the group splits into two obviously separate smaller groups (at opposite ends of the village green, say) for the duration of the stop. Once we started riding again, we would have to be back down to 6. The extra person would have to make his own way home.

That's all just my personal opinion, of course.

User avatar
TrevA
Posts: 2454
Joined: 1 Jun 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby TrevA » 22 Jun 2020, 10:44pm

Well, actually we had 2 groups of 6 :), at a takeaway cafe, with a large field adjacent. We were all sat in the field, along with a few strangers, all at at least 2m distance.

So you can sit somewhere (in a park or in a field) with a group of people you don’t know, at 2m distance. But you can’t do the same with people you happen to know?

Given that there aren’t that many cafes open at the moment, the chances of turning up at a cafe and seeing someone you know are quite high, especially at the weekend, when most people have a cafe stop between 11 and 11.30. So if you’ve ridden there as a group of 6, and someone you know turns up, you are screwed.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

AndyK
Posts: 885
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby AndyK » 22 Jun 2020, 11:50pm

TrevA wrote:So you can sit somewhere (in a park or in a field) with a group of people you don’t know, at 2m distance. But you can’t do the same with people you happen to know?

No, you can't - to both. If you are in a group of more than 6 with people from other households, even if you're standing 2m apart, you are breaking the law. How well you know them is irrelevant. Obviously what "in a group" means is open to varying interpretation, but if you're all facing one another and talking to each other that's probably a fair indication.

mattsccm
Posts: 3313
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby mattsccm » 23 Jun 2020, 6:40am

Taken literally, if your 6 is approached by a person asking a question you become a group of 7 . However I feel that a prosecution would not be forthcoming.
However if two groups of 5 turned up, all in the same club kit and then sat 2 metres apart chatting I feel it would be reasonable for a constable to at least comment on the group size.
It is all a grey area. It does no one any good to to try to exploit it or,to be honest,question it much as we would like to to suit our own needs. The alternative could well be stricter rules. So far this so called lock down has been no such thing . We have had masses of freedom. Not worth a few more weeks.
Many clubs, mine included have yet to reinstate club rides. Under CUK we could have but BC have been behind in this respect and many clubs are further behind as we all know that to ride on the road two metres apart won't happen and to be seen failing in that respect may well bring the club into disrepute.
I think that if an event is organised the ride leader holds a responsibility to stick to the rules and if this means a few "words" then so be it. If some one is upset by that I would question their suitability to the group.
Overall though, some common sense, something sadly lacking in many cases, goes a long way.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15822
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby mjr » 23 Jun 2020, 9:41am

mattsccm wrote:Many clubs, mine included have yet to reinstate club rides. Under CUK we could have but BC have been behind in this respect and many clubs are further behind as we all know that to ride on the road two metres apart won't happen and to be seen failing in that respect may well bring the club into disrepute.

As long as you ride with a sideways gap, why won't it happen? Bikes tend to be 1m80 long and few ride 20cm between wheels.

(Whether that is enough gap for health is a different question.)

Clubs will be wrongly accused anyway but the cafes really appreciate the support now.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Pebble
Posts: 106
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby Pebble » 23 Jun 2020, 11:18am

I would have thought the gap needs to be proportional to air speed, 1 yard in front, fine, 5 yards behind, more risky. this is not the time to be the fat lad at the back of a group. The fittest, strongest and least vulnerable taking the least risk.

I have been making a point of keeping upwind of anyone I talk to outside.

PRL
Posts: 606
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 9:14pm
Location: Richmond upon Thames

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby PRL » 19 Jul 2020, 6:02pm

Medical opinion seems to be that ventilation outdoors spreads out any exhaled droplets sufficiently to become non-infectious at a 1-2m distance.
Shouting directly at each other at 1m apart would be pushing it.

Jdsk
Posts: 1329
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Covid & 'Groups'

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jul 2020, 6:05pm

"What is the evidence to support the 2-metre social distancing rule to reduce COVID-19 transmission?"
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-is-the-evidence-to-support-the-2-metre-social-distancing-rule-to-reduce-covid-19-transmission/

Jonathan