Cycle training for all!

Adnepos
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Cycle training for all!

Postby Adnepos » 27 Jun 2020, 9:40am

What do you think about Grant Shapps' mention this week that Bikeability might be made available to secondary school kids and to adults? He's not made a commitment, mind.

I don't have a problem with this proposition but to my way of thinking, these resources might be better spent on educating those that cause trouble for people of cycles. If it were me, I'd make it compulsory for HGV/PSV drivers to be educated once every few years. If they think they are unable to get their leg over a bike and pootle along under supervision they could be treated to some educational course that would provide equivalent awareness of the problems posed to cyclists by motor vehicles. A similar course could be imposed on drivers who close-pass &c.

Jdsk
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby Jdsk » 27 Jun 2020, 10:16am

Adnepos wrote:What do you think about Grant Shapps' mention this week that Bikeability might be made available to secondary school kids and to adults? He's not a commitment, mind.


I don't know the details of the scheme, let alone the actual proposal, but it's an excellent idea. Mandation might not be,

Adnepos wrote:I don't have a problem with this proposition but to my way of thinking, these resources might be better spent on educating those that cause trouble for people of cycles. If it were me, I'd make it compulsory for HGV/PSV drivers to be educated once every few years. If they think they are unable to get their leg over a bike and pootle along under supervision they could be treated to some educational course that would provide equivalent awareness of the problems posed to cyclists by motor vehicles. A similar course could be imposed on drivers who close-pass &c.

i wouldn't immediately switch to one or the other because of some perceived lack of resources. If both are cost-effective then both should be done.

The evidence of effectiveness for unfocussed "driver education" isn't positive. It's probably better to go for "Graduated Driver Licensing" and focussed interventions for drivers of high-risk vehicles (like those HGVs and PSVs) and those who have identified themselves as higher risk (like those close passers and previous offenders).

Now, how would anyone persuade someone else that these are good ideas? My guess is that using rude names about other road users might not be optimal.

Jonathan

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Philip Benstead
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby Philip Benstead » 27 Jun 2020, 8:44pm

Adnepos wrote:What do you think about Grant Shapps' mention this week that Bikeability might be made available to secondary school kids and to adults? He's not made a commitment, mind.

I don't have a problem with this proposition but to my way of thinking, these resources might be better spent on educating those that cause trouble for people of cycles. If it were me, I'd make it compulsory for HGV/PSV drivers to be educated once every few years. If they think they are unable to get their leg over a bike and pootle along under supervision they could be treated to some educational course that would provide equivalent awareness of the problems posed to cyclists by motor vehicles. A similar course could be imposed on drivers who close-pass &c.


Do you mean this? https://www.fors-online.org.uk/cms/safe-urban-driving/
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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Si
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby Si » 28 Jun 2020, 11:46am

One of those things that sounded a good idea before they thought it through. It will have a few issues to overcome:

1. there are not enough qualified instructors to deliver all of this new training
2. there isn't currently that much incentive to become an instructor: a lot of it is bitsa work for low wages and gig-economy conditions, and the new standard has made it harder to become an instructor.
3. schools will find it difficult to fit into the curriculum, unless its done as part of PE, in which case it will take ages to do a school
4. recruiting adults onto courses can be very difficult in certain areas and will mean spending as much in promo as in delivery
5. it will, no doubt, only be L2 which is very limited. L3, having smaller ratios, is very expensive.
6. there will be a kick back from a number of cyclists who see it as the first step to mandatory tests, licenses, etc.

- the above is based on my experience of running learn to ride programmes for adults and families in both deprived and middle class areas, as well as teaching bikeability in schools.

If, on the other hand, they were to make bikeability instruction and promotion into a full-time professional role rather than the self-employed/zero-hours/piece meal thing that it is now, they'd have a lot better chance....bu this would cost even more money.

In short, would be nice but it's going to cost a helluva lot more than people think, and take a lot longer. On the other hand the blond-buffoon has just announced a new programme to get the nation healthier so may be part of this.....as always there have been no specifics in the headlines.

Spending the money on quality infra instead is one option, but ideally you'd not have to choose - you'd spend properly on both.

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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jun 2020, 1:17pm

As a former instructor, I agree completely with Si, and will add that training is perpetually seen by campaigners as a substitute for real action on cycling because that has largely been the case. Also, acceptability for it at school is currently highly dependent on the head teacher. Some are enthusiastic about it. Other have consistently refused it due to disruption of school work. Others reluctantly allow training, but make it clear they don't actually want children riding their bikes to school. One school I taught at didn't allow access to the bike stands because the head teacher parked her car there!

I think that Bikeability is generally a good training programme, and not too different from what is done in countries with much higher levels of cycling, such as the Netherlands and Denmark. Increased availability would definitiely be a positive, but not in lieu of other action, and not feasible without improving the employment conditions for Bikeability instructors.
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby mjr » 28 Jun 2020, 3:18pm

Good idea but I'll praise it more when it's good work!
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arnsider
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby arnsider » 30 Jun 2020, 11:10am

Compulsory training is a vexed question. There is no doubt that cycling is a safety critical means of travel and on todays roads, one false move can mean death or serious injury.
I am not a parent, but would quake at the idea of my offspring riding to school, anywhere involving busy roads at rush hour times.
Society is reluctant or unwilling to take seriously the question of riding to school and the fact that parents park up in droves anywhere near a busy school says lots about their understanding of others needs.
I always felt that the UK cycle retailers went down the wrong road in mass marketing "Mountain bikes" and tacitly encouraged bad habits among the young, like mounting the kerb and riding on pavements.
It is difficult putting yourself into the mind of a child, especially if you are a seasoned car driver like a lot of older cyclists are.
I've no doubt that some sort of compulsory training and third party insurance is highly desireable, but as to how?????
I live in a cul de sac and interestingly, there are six youngsters that regularly ride their bikes about the place.
They set up timber jumps and ride around like fury! That's great, but sooner or later they will want to venture further.
None of the Mums and dads ride, so they are going to be unaccompanied.
There are five adult cyclists, including me. One is a seasoned triathlete, another a road club rider and a couple who get out weekends.
So how will the kids progress?

RH20
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby RH20 » 30 Jun 2020, 2:15pm

As someone who passed his cycling proficiency test more than 60 years ago, I can see the value of cycle training, not just for the young, but it can also be advantageous for older riders who may not have cycled for many years and are possibly lacking in confidence on today’s busy roads.
We have become too used to getting into a car for even the shortest of journeys and are too taken up with saving time. More people cycling in normal clothing, and taking time to enjoy the journey are what is need to enhance lives. The more people seen cycling on the roads will eventually make cycling safer as it will be considered more normal. A long term solution I know, but a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
Have a look at TREK Bicycle YouTube go by bike. Footage situated in Copenhagen. We could do with a lot more of this type of public information advertising to try and encourage more people to cycle.
Training for the young, allied to more public awareness off cycling could make roads much safer.

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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby John Holiday » 8 Jul 2020, 12:43pm

We do lots of Level 1& 2 Bikeability Training in local schools, but rarely Level 3 aimed at Secondary School students. For some reason, the schools state that there is not enough spare time in the curriculum to incorporate such training. This seems an odd argument for a Life Skill, and when so many youngsters need to be more active.

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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby delilah » 8 Jul 2020, 3:50pm

+ For Si.
I totally agree. Having been a Bikeability instructor for over 15 years I'm now packing it in!
I'm not prepared to accept all the new rules, responsibilities and re-train for the "new " qualification for £60 a day.
I know lots of instructors of the same mind. The kids are great and the job can be very rewarding but until we get a decent days pay for the job then I'm going to spend more time riding and no time instructing

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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby mjr » 8 Jul 2020, 4:05pm

https://cyclingindustry.news/bikeabilit ... ext-month/ has a little more detail, rereported from a story in the subscription-only Sunday Times.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Jul 2020, 4:08pm

All the reliable data proves that cycle training has zero effect on cyclist safety, it's utterly pointless and more focus put on those doing the harm instead of always modifying behaviour of the vulnerable to still be at the mercy of the killers behind a steering wheel.

The study by Hertfordshire county council that collated all the data from other councils found that contra to 'common sense', people who were cycle trained EDIT had no different outcomes to those who had no training.
That's before you even get to the discriminatory compulsory plastic hat wearing nonsense for bike training that works against cycling safety as well as continuing to back the changing of application/upholding of laws towards people on bikes when they are harmed! :evil:

Maybe use the money to send letters out to every license holder to tell them they have a compulsory 6 lesson training course in how to drive properly and also 2 weeks of riding a bike on main roads/busy urban environment at peak times, also that the cost of all that will be at their expense. if they can't afford it or fail to attend the sessions then they lose the right to drive, people's cars will be then electronically tagged and if they are moved without evidence that they are not driving it the car will be confiscated and crushed.
So called professional drivers to be forced to take more regular refresher courses and also be forced to ride a cycle for 2 weeks.

That will do for a start off instead of piddling money away on something utterly wasteful and won't increase uptake of cycling either - or have we ignored the facts regards cycle training and no increase in cycling?

And that's all before you even
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 9 Jul 2020, 12:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jdsk
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby Jdsk » 8 Jul 2020, 4:23pm

The utility cyclist wrote:All the reliable data proves that cycle training has zero effect on cyclist safety...

Is there a convenient summary of the evidence which supports that assertion, please?

Perhaps something like a systematic review?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: There's a serious attempt to assess how much of the current advice is supported by evidence in the 2012 Canadian review:
" Evidence from Safety Research to Update Cycling Training Materials in Canada"
http://cyclingincities-spph.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2012/09/EvidenceTrainingReport.pdf

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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby John Holiday » 8 Jul 2020, 4:24pm

I agree that drivers could do with more training and hazard awareness, but cannot agree that Cycle Training has little benefit.
The whole idea is to ride defensively but assertively, as part of traffic.
I appreciate that this requires a huge leap of faith for youngsters who are repeatedly told to beware of traffic.
Would be very sceptical of data purporting to show that Training was of little benefit.
Safe cycling!

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Cycle training for all!

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Jul 2020, 4:39pm

Jdsk wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:All the reliable data proves that cycle training has zero effect on cyclist safety...

Is there a convenient summary of the evidence which supports that assertion, please?

Perhaps something like a systematic review?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: There's a serious attempt to assess how much of the current advice is supported by evidence in the 2012 Canadian review:
" Evidence from Safety Research to Update Cycling Training Materials in Canada"
http://cyclingincities-spph.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2012/09/EvidenceTrainingReport.pdf

You'd have to contact Hertfordshire county council for the full data, the statement they released is basically what I said. I haven't being able to find the summary, as far as I know, no other authority has collated findings from cycle training in the UK.

Either way, I still find it a disgrace that the focus is on the vulnerable on how not to get maimed or worse! Don't walk down these streets, don't go out at certain times, don't wear this or wear that .... sound familiar?
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 8 Jul 2020, 5:35pm, edited 1 time in total.