School run anyone?

tim-b
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby tim-b » 3 Jul 2020, 6:59am

Hi
Traffic volumes will rise, pollution levels will rise and so fewer children will cycle. Bikes bought for family rides during lockdown will become disused and before you know it we'll be back to "normal".
Some of the most blatant impatient driving and illegal parking that I've seen happens outside our schools and what seemed to be a welcome trend in traffic reduction won't last because the infrastructure is just the same as it was earlier in the year EDIT with the "bonus" of fewer socially-distanced bus seats
Regards
tim-b
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mjr
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby mjr » 3 Jul 2020, 9:55am

Can we mere plebs do anything to deter that?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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reohn2
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2020, 11:03am

Tangled Metal wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Schools are too big, they should be smaller and more numerous. Many middle class parents insist on sending their kiddies to 'better' schools that may be far from home

Maybe boarding could be a solution, home just at weekends?

There's one small high school in our town. It's ok but if your kid has ability or other issues then parents try to get them into schools further away. Local HS has historically been a kind of sink school. Clever kids go to grammar school 10 miles away and use bus or train. Those unable to get in there tend to go to utter high schools from about 8 miles away to about 15 to 20 miles away. The latter has a new building specialising in vocational qualifications so suit less academic kids, a good comprehensive school and we might send ours there even though he's showing signs of being grammar school material.

Basically there's more factors to school choice than distance. Unfortunately head teachers are very influential on school quality. There's some who are creative and have drive to improve the school. Others are running down to retirement or a sacking if you ask me. It is unfair to insist parents send their kids to schools that will only take their potential future away from them, just based on distance and transport issues.

Isn't this part of the problem that all schools don't have the same high standard of education the better schools have and why education has become a post code lottery?
Schools are too big,500 max number of pupils/students in any one school is enough with 25max number of pupils/students in any one class.
This would mean a much better and higher level of education for all,schools would be much nearer to home and teachers would know the pupils/students better,children could also walk or cycle to school as part of their daily exercise.
We're the authors of the present education disaster of underfunding of a two or even three tier education system that's failing our children.
It's the same with higher education IMO which has become a business that has to make a profit and not primarily not an education facility.
All of it paves the way for better off parents with the ability to buck the system and the poorer family's children generally ending up in 'sink' schools,a two tier system ends up with a two tier society IMO.

My 2d's worth
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Mike Sales
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Mike Sales » 3 Jul 2020, 4:31pm

mjr wrote:And British parents haven't got the guts to demand government "Stop Murdering Our Children". Instead, they'll keep helping murder their children and everyone else by putting them in cars. :-(


Instead of making the roads safer, we prefer to tell cyclists to wear a helmet.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 3 Jul 2020, 4:38pm

gaz wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Nobody has mentioned the school bus.

Distancing due to Covid-19 currently reduces public transport capacity to about 15% of normal. In 2014 more secondary school pupils went to/from school by bus than by car.

Mini-me passed his Bikeability at primary. He showed no interest in cycling to secondary, about 4 miles of murder-strip alongside a 50mph road leading to a large 40mph roundabout and a final mile choked with school run traffic.

Bus1.png
Bus2.png
Following decades of 'encouraging' rather than 'enabling' cycling no amount of hi-vis and helmets will keep children walking or cycling to school safe from frustrated careless drivers on a dark winter's morning/evening.

Interesting to see that. Basically, it seems there's a shift from car to bus between primary and secondary. Some reasons are obvious: secondaries are more likely to have bus services, those services are more likely to be subsidised due to distance, and secondary kids can be trusted to get off at the right place! But that last point shows it's a bit of a lump to put all primaries together – kids' capabilities increase vastly from 5 to 11. Similarly, some (probably quite a lot, actually, in rural areas0 of the 17-18s will be driving their own cars to school.

reohn2
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2020, 5:23pm

gaz wrote:.........Following decades of 'encouraging' rather than 'enabling' cycling no amount of hi-vis and helmets will keep children walking or cycling to school safe from frustrated careless drivers on a dark winter's morning/evening.


Absolutely nail,head,on!
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Pete Owens
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Pete Owens » 3 Jul 2020, 8:28pm

atoz wrote:This comment was made on the FE news website by a schools transport specialist

"Walking or cycling to school is simply not viable for the millions of children who have miles to travel each day. Before lockdown, 61% of pupils required transportation to school, which rose to 71% of those living in smaller towns and villages, meaning that taking away the option of public transport will leave the majority of children and parents no choice but to travel to school by car."

https://www.fenews.co.uk/fevoices/50615 ... -september

Comments?

Richard Woods (Chief Operating Officer of CoachHire.com) is basically talking self interested [rude word removed].
Fewer kids than that get actually get transported to school - let alone are "required" to be.

Tangled Metal
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Tangled Metal » 3 Jul 2020, 9:26pm

mjr wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Basically I suspect those countries prefer the option of providing [safe] options rather than trying to make drivers safer. Unfortunately our countryside isn't really the place for that hence more car use or public transport if there is any.

How is our countryside any less the place for safe walking and cycling than in those other countries? Just because it's governed by short term idiots?

Yes! This^^^^^^

atoz
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby atoz » 3 Jul 2020, 11:42pm

mattsccm wrote:The primary school that I work at has 55 kids from 4 to 11. Country village and there are 4 kids that walk to school. The rest live in the surrounding villages and towns. 2 miles minimum.Sadly the long hills either way would preclude all but the keenest cyclists. Country roads with not even a verge makes walking lethal. As many/most of these kids have either young siblings in tow or in the infant classes I suggest that realistically cycling or walking isn't an option. As much as anything the parents would then have to ride home and get the car out to go to work. Driving makes much more sense.
Of course in a city things may be different but Clarke Gable had the best answer for that as far as I am concerned. :D


I have a relative who lives in East Anglia so I am familiar with these type of issues. The car ownership level where he lives is apparently the highest in the country at 85%

atoz
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby atoz » 3 Jul 2020, 11:55pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
gaz wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Nobody has mentioned the school bus.

Distancing due to Covid-19 currently reduces public transport capacity to about 15% of normal. In 2014 more secondary school pupils went to/from school by bus than by car.

Mini-me passed his Bikeability at primary. He showed no interest in cycling to secondary, about 4 miles of murder-strip alongside a 50mph road leading to a large 40mph roundabout and a final mile choked with school run traffic.

Bus1.png
Bus2.png
Following decades of 'encouraging' rather than 'enabling' cycling no amount of hi-vis and helmets will keep children walking or cycling to school safe from frustrated careless drivers on a dark winter's morning/evening.

Interesting to see that. Basically, it seems there's a shift from car to bus between primary and secondary. Some reasons are obvious: secondaries are more likely to have bus services, those services are more likely to be subsidised due to distance, and secondary kids can be trusted to get off at the right place! But that last point shows it's a bit of a lump to put all primaries together – kids' capabilities increase vastly from 5 to 11. Similarly, some (probably quite a lot, actually, in rural areas0 of the 17-18s will be driving their own cars to school.


Post 16 students at college don't usually have special buses, they use the service bus. People forget just how many are in this group. They won't be driving to college as they will find it difficult to find affordable parking, but in any case they will find it difficult to afford to buy, insure and run a car. These are not middle class undergrads, just kids doing courses like social care, hairdressing. Some who live close could cycle but colleges don't usually have secure cycle parking, and without that it's a non starter.

richardfm
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby richardfm » 4 Jul 2020, 12:00am

atoz wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Most people live in towns and cities where the next school is not far away
Most should be able to walk (or cycle)


Apparently 1 in 4 journeys at peak period can be attributed to the school run if this piece is to be believed.

IMHO, the issue is not so much distance, but safety. And then there is the issue of secure bike storage. And if there is none, who is paying for it. Schools and colleges are targets for thieves.

If more children walked or cycled to school then there would be much less traffic on the roads and a perception that it would be much safer.
The local council should make provision of secure cycle storage at schools.

Pete Owens
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2020, 12:20am

botty wrote:Average 1.6 mile to school for primary school pupils would appear easily walkable (if we would let them do so like I had to in my youth) and 3.6 miles is cyclable. It's just a mindset that needs changing.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... school.pdf


And averages are distorted by outliers, so a large majority of children are much closer than the average. Most live in cities or towns where schools are close but the average is dragged up by the small number living in remote villages.

For example imagine talking a sample of 10 from primary children. 9 of them live 1 mile away and the other 1 lives 7 miles away - that gives an average of 1.6 miles.

Pete Owens
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2020, 12:48am

Tangled Metal wrote:Lots of complexity that affects what is possible I think. I'll list a few..

Actually it is very very simple.
There are a small number of children who live far enough away to qualify for school transport provision. These children pretty much all use the provided school bus or taxi service.

For the rest it depends entirely on whether the relevant parent happens to have access to a car. Once people have access to a car they will tend to use it for every single journey, however short or inappropriate, whether that is for going to school or anywhere else. Of course, they all know that driving is bad foe public health and the environment, so when asked they will always rationalise this by coming up with some excuse - ie your list. But when it comes down to it it is just that the alternatives simply haven't crossed their mind. Going somewhere (anywhere) involves getting in the car.

Pete Owens
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2020, 12:58am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Schools are too big, they should be smaller and more numerous. Many middle class parents insist on sending their kiddies to 'better' schools that may be far from home

This issue of school choice is a bit of a myth. Yes, middle class parents do want to send their kids to what is perceived as the "best" school in town. The result is that that school becomes oversubscribed and since most school ration their places by proximity its catchment becomes smaller. The only way to get your kids to the school is to move within the catchment inflating local house prices. Of course the reason the school became perceived as the "best" in the first place is most likely that it was in a middle class catchment.

Of course the road outside the school gates will be heaving with double parked 4x4s - because if you can afford the house prices to live a quarter of a mile from the school then you can afford a second car for the family.

Pete Owens
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Re: School run anyone?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2020, 1:33am

atoz wrote:Apparently 1 in 4 journeys at peak period can be attributed to the school run if this piece is to be believed.

Probably true given school aged children as a proportion of the total population.

This is usually raised by car drivers doing things other than the school run who notice that there are too many cars on the road during term time (without the self awareness to notice that they themselves are the problerm). Of course cars are overused every bit as much for those 3/4 of journeys going to other places at peak times as they are for the 1/4 going to schools.

"Too many people driving cars to school" is just a subset of "too many people driving cars". The "to school" bit is irrelevant. Yes, most school journeys are too short to justify driving - but then that is true for most other journeys.