Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

thirdcrank
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Jul 2020, 4:00pm

I've only had time to glance at this but the most obvious thing to me is that with all the extra talent now employed as HM Inspectors, the only measure they seem to be able to come up with is fewer fatalities = safer roads.

Once upon a time all the HMIs were former chief police officers. We've moved on and the Chief HMI is a former rail regulator. the other HMIs include a couple of lawyers, one ex-police chief, and this inspection was apparently led by Rear Admiral Matt Parr CB.

irc
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby irc » 16 Jul 2020, 4:33pm

Mike Sales wrote:
irc wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Presumably, "good hunting grounds" for speeding drivers are roads where lots of drivers are breaking the law.
Seems to be places that need more enforcement.


I disagree. A traffic cop I know moaned to me that a push for numbers meant some of his colleagues were doing speeders in places where there was no danger to get easy numbers. I would rather have 1 speeder done outside a school (and many others discouraged) than 20 on a slip road with a motorway one side, a railway the other, and zero other road users apart from cars going the same way at similar speeds.

Case in point. Westbound slip from M8 to Clyde tunnel. Goes to 30mph halfway along still several hundred yards from the roundabout.

https://goo.gl/maps/KCkNQ2dkDX1CqcvY7

With limited traffic cops I would suggest focus on places where speeding poses the most danger. Not where the easiest ticks are.


If drivers think that some limits are inappropriate then they should campaign about that, not just ignore them. I don't trust drivers to decide the safe speed.
Why is it so onerous to obey the law? Limits are well signed. Why can't drivers just take it easy?


We need to start from where we are. We will never have traffic cops on every street so where should they be?

Not just traffic. Heard about a community cop who took a report of a theft of a pensioners handbag on a bus. Did the spadework. Got CCTV. Recognised the suspect. Traced, interviewed, and kept in custody for court on Monday. This took up his entire weekend.

Result. Criticised for missing target for street drinkers. A couple of chief constables ago the numbers culture, previously largely absent in Strathclyde was brought it. Good PR but not always good policing.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Jul 2020, 5:43pm

If government were truly bothered about less harm to society they would spend money on ensuring every single motor had a speed restrictor and lower all speed limits except motorways, major trunk roads could also be excepted for a reduction if there was a proper lane for people on bikes along the whole length. Also to enforce regular repeat driver skill/understanding and health testing.
This would save countless billions, get to the whole stopping up roads in built up areas and building communities around active travel and you'd claw back many tens of billions every year from the debt created by a criminal government!

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willcee
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby willcee » 16 Jul 2020, 7:57pm

I agree about the softest targets, Over here in the last couple of years there been a move to place Yellow Dalek like speed readouts inside the 30 limits in country villages where it frowns if your over 30 and smiles if under, they are stood for maybe a week and then moved on..and they ain't accurate.. my speedo is , and is checked daily on a local car dealers electric warning readout on his avenue and has been in operation for perhaps 12 years serviced now and then.. 30 on mine is 30 on the car guys machine.. yet and this is the important point, i have yet to see any of these placed in Nationalist areas by the so called ''fair'' PSNI..there are a few local villages and i have not yet managed to see a Dalek sited in the Catholic areas why because they would likely be burned or destroyed in some manner yet they place them in safe villages where law abiding Loyal people have to endure this safety attempt at speed control.. now i like the idea but get them out into every area PSNI.. but they won't.... will

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Wanlock Dod » 16 Jul 2020, 9:08pm

Jdsk wrote:Any proposals for how to design the incentives to encourage the enforcers to behave accordingly?


How about basing targets on reductions in numbers of casualties rather than fines handed out. The casualty reductions could even be targeted at pedestrians and cyclists because they are perhaps a bit less likely to kill them selves, and it would encourage more enforcement in urban areas where there are more people. Imagine how much safer our cities would be if 20 mph speed limits were enforced.

Pete Owens
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Pete Owens » 17 Jul 2020, 12:55am

What is needed is a change of government from one who represents the perpetrators to one who represents the victims. Unfortunately this is unlikely for a few years.

thirdcrank
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Jul 2020, 6:09am

It's not so much representing victims as which victims are represented. We now have a Victims' Commissioner

https://victimscommissioner.org.uk/

The annual report for 2019/20 has recently been published and is here

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/vict ... rlinks.pdf

Searching on a series of terms related to road policing brought only a single hit and that was for for human trafficking. I fancy that any benefits to the victims of bad driving are either spin-offs - or where a vehicle is clearly used as a weapon. It's hardly surprising that the section on future plans has nothing about vulnerable road users who are obviously not seen as victims in the official sense.

FWIW and as I keep pointing out, this is one of the principle reasons for road policing being such a low priority. And as I pointed out higher up, this special inspection of roads policing was commissioned by the transport ministry not the Home Office. It's treating roads policing as an aspect of traffic management rather than criminal justice.

A search on "vulnerable" brings up this example of what I referred to as a "spin-off." eg Witnesses "not wanting to get involved" is one of my hobbyhorses.

We know almost half of all witnesses who have attended court say they would never do so again. In part, this is caused by delay in getting cases to trial, especially with vulnerable victims of violent and sexual offences. Poor communication is another factor.


Again FWIW, I found that quote when searching in vain for references to vulnerable road users.

Jdsk
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Jdsk » 17 Jul 2020, 9:54am

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Any proposals for how to design the incentives to encourage the enforcers to behave accordingly?

How about basing targets on reductions in numbers of casualties rather than fines handed out. The casualty reductions could even be targeted at pedestrians and cyclists because they are perhaps a bit less likely to kill them selves, and it would encourage more enforcement in urban areas where there are more people. Imagine how much safer our cities would be if 20 mph speed limits were enforced.

The arguments around using targets are complex, partly because of the rid of gaming.

But I think that would be much better than the current approach. Not least because I'd expect it to force authorities and agencies to work together on those reductions, and many of the changes need that collaboration.

Jonathan

PS: The evidence is that 20 mph zones are more effective than 20 mph limits.

PPS: Does anyone know what happens to penalty fines? Does the police force keep them, and what fraction of their income do they represent?

Oldjohnw
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Jul 2020, 4:47pm

AFAIU the police or LA have to pay it to central government coffers.
John

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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby reohn2 » 17 Jul 2020, 4:51pm

Pete Owens wrote:What is needed is a change of government from one who represents the perpetrators to one who represents the victims. Unfortunately this is unlikely for a few years.

Quite!
An opportunity has just been missed and barely 7months since the GE we have become tragically aware of where the "get brexit done" mantra has led the country.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Pete Owens » 17 Jul 2020, 10:10pm

Though some parts of the UK are more enlightened:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53416999

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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby reohn2 » 17 Jul 2020, 10:26pm

Pete Owens wrote:Though some parts of the UK are more enlightened:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53416999

No surprise a Brexit party member reckons it's a bad idea :?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Jul 2020, 7:09am

One result of the inspection's casualty-counting is that motorcyclists and young drivers are regarded as the vulnerable road users. Indeed, I could find only one reference to "cyclists" that wasn't preceded by "motor." That single reference was a link to Operation Close Pass.

We already know that the policing of roads as it affects cyclists has tanked and is getting worse. There's little in the report to improve things for cyclists and what there is seems to be a spin-off eg proposals to improve Operation Snap (dashcam footage portal) might help with cyclists' reports supported with helmet/ handlebar footage.

So, it's best to ignore it and restrict our limited interest to the Daily Mail's dog whistle comments about cash cow speed cameras. (BTW, the financial accounting for the £££ from fixed penalties is explained in some detail in the report.)

Jdsk
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jul 2020, 10:35am

thirdcrank wrote:(BTW, the financial accounting for the £££ from fixed penalties is explained in some detail in the report.)

Found it.

Thank you

Jonathan

thirdcrank
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Re: Less policing ‘causing rise in road deaths in England and Wales’

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Jul 2020, 11:11am

Even before I'd read this report, I predicted it would be about giving Highways England more control over policing motorways and trunk roads.

The report makes the point that the police were being inspected ergo no criticism of other agencies especially highways agencies. This means that where a lack of co-operation/ consultation was found, the blame is inevitably aimed at the police. In reality, obliged to make cuts, they have made cuts. I'm predicting that these findings will be used to transfer more powers to Highways England.

On the subject of speed enforcement cameras, Highways England likes to use them for more than road safety: smoothing traffic flow to increase road capacity; reducing traffic speed to reduce pollution. Indeed, by far the biggest use of speed enforcement cameras on motorways is for health and safety reasons at roadworks. I'm not commenting on the value of these uses of cameras just pointing out that they are seen by petrolheads as controversial.

And while I'm on about consultation, converting motorway hardshoulders into permanent running lanes which has been the subject of recent controversy, was carried out in West Yorkshire against police opposition.

None of this is of direct concern to cyclists qua cyclists of course. What should concern cyclists is that even though this inspection was commanded by an admiral, it's too shallow to float a rowing boat. Never mind blind eye, the telescope never came out of its case.