National Cycle Network Being Slashed

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Pete Owens
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by Pete Owens »

pwa wrote:The Bridgend area (close to me) has had a lot of new shared use paths constructed alongside dual carriageways in the last two or three years, all of which are aimed more at utility rather than leisure, and none of which have any Sustrans involvement. They are Local Authority projects. I wonder if Sustrans has much of a role now.


The problem with Bridgend in that case is building massively over engineered local roads in the first place. Thus making the place so hostile for active travel that simply encouraging cyclists to ride on the pavement can be presented as progress - though the real aim is actually to get the pesky cyclists out of the way of "proper" traffic.

The planners are obviously auto-supremacists of the first order if they feel the need to build high speed dual carriageways through a small town of 50000 with zero through traffic since it bypassed by a Motorway.
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mjr
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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I may be speaking on BBC Radio Norfolk about the route cuts after 1715 today.
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ChrisF
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by ChrisF »

Sustrans has sent me this link https://data-sustrans-uk.opendata.arcgis.com/ which allows you to zoom in and see the status of each individual section of the NCN (e.g. if it's off-road, if it's 'MTB-only'). It also shows the gaps which have appeared in what was beginning to be a 'national' network; short sections which have been removed making the rest of some long-distance routes somewhat pointless.
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mjr
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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ChrisF wrote:Sustrans has sent me this link https://data-sustrans-uk.opendata.arcgis.com/ which allows you to zoom in and see the status of each individual section of the NCN (e.g. if it's off-road, if it's 'MTB-only'). It also shows the gaps which have appeared in what was beginning to be a 'national' network; short sections which have been removed making the rest of some long-distance routes somewhat pointless.

Thank you but it's so near and yet so far!
1. The Reclassified Routes doesn't seem to have any indication why sections were reclassified and that's what we really need.
2. We also need a Deleted Routes file similar.
3. The NCN map there disagrees with https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn in that data-sustrans-uk contains at least one route now reclassified on the osmaps: which is the real NCN?

Do you have a live contact there you'd ask or shall I email the address on that site?
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ChrisF
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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mjr wrote:Thank you but it's so near and yet so far!
1. The Reclassified Routes doesn't seem to have any indication why sections were reclassified and that's what we really need.
2. We also need a Deleted Routes file similar.
3. The NCN map there disagrees with https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn in that data-sustrans-uk contains at least one route now reclassified on the osmaps: which is the real NCN?

I agree, there are some discrepancies that I have seen too. I guess it's a WIP.
mjr wrote:Do you have a live contact there you'd ask or shall I email the address on that site?

I have PM'd you with my recent Sustrans correspondence
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Pete Owens
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by Pete Owens »

Looking at what as been cut in this part of the world, I don't think it will actually make any difference to whether they are signed or not.

They are mostly the county cycleways - recreational scenic tours on country lanes that were promoted by the councils before Sustrans came on the scene and will almost certainly continue to promote and sign in the future. Routes such as the Cheshire Cycleway, Lancashire Cycleway, Yorkshire Dales Cycleway have strong local branding and were put together by local cyclists so tend to make for excellent rides. They were initially allocated regional route numbers (blue squares rather than red ones), but that distinction has seems to have gone recently leading to confusing duplication of numbers. I think it was only last year that the Yorkshire Dales Cycleway acquired and NCN number so it probably hasn't been signed as part of the NCN yet. The Lakes and Dales Loop - which I think is a rebranding of the Cumbria Cycleway hasn't made it onto the NCN in the first place.

I think all these routes will actually benefit from not being associated with Sustrans. They are all marketed as stand-alone recreational cycle tours - which they are very good examples of. They don't try to pretend that they are part of a utility network - since the aren't. And there is no danger of finding yourself in axle deep mud - which is what you would expect if you were to follow Sustrans signage.
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by AndyK »

ChrisF wrote:
mjr wrote:Thank you but it's so near and yet so far!
1. The Reclassified Routes doesn't seem to have any indication why sections were reclassified and that's what we really need.
2. We also need a Deleted Routes file similar.
3. The NCN map there disagrees with https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn in that data-sustrans-uk contains at least one route now reclassified on the osmaps: which is the real NCN?

I agree, there are some discrepancies that I have seen too. I guess it's a WIP.
mjr wrote:Do you have a live contact there you'd ask or shall I email the address on that site?

I have PM'd you with my recent Sustrans correspondence

If anyone happens to have downloaded a dataset of the whole route network from before the changes, I can load both old and new datasets into QGIS and do a spot-the-difference check to identify the deleted routes.
asbrown1972
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by asbrown1972 »

Any idea how you can apply to get s route downgraded? I've just ridden part of ncn14, in no way is that suitable to be designated as a cycle route, it's along a fast A road and the surface is only suitable for a mtb with nobbly tyres. The local council are not accepting such reports due to Covid-19 ( and have done sweet fa to improve cycling provision during the period)
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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asbrown1972 wrote:Any idea how you can apply to get s route downgraded? I've just ridden part of ncn14, in no way is that suitable to be designated as a cycle route, it's along a fast A road and the surface is only suitable for a mtb with nobbly tyres. The local council are not accepting such reports due to Covid-19 ( and have done sweet fa to improve cycling provision during the period)

Contact your Sustrans regional office but if it's alongside a road, they'll keep it no matter how bad, as far as I can tell. Teenagers won't have to suffer too many fast cars on the NCN, but breaking their legs or bikes with crap surfaces seems fine by Sustrans :(
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gaz
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by gaz »

The Network Review map that I have seen for Kent (A4 for whole of county, not especially detailed) does not seem to have any "off-road"* sections rated worse than 'good'. The assessment process placed considerable weighting on "traffic free". There's a huge amount of 'very poor' and 'poor' to be tackled before Sustrans worries about the 'good'.

Having looked hard for it I've spotted a couple of bits of "off-road" rated 'poor' in SE London and Essex. The former I've ridden once in the past few years, I'll put the rating down to the fact it is devoid of signage. The latter I've not seen for 35 years or more, I recall it has steps and a brief streetview suggests it is also unsigned.

*In Sustransian "off-road" simply means not on a motor carriageway. No distinction between shared footways beside an A road, narrow town alleyways or mud/gravel tracks in the countryside.
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pwa
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by pwa »

Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:The Bridgend area (close to me) has had a lot of new shared use paths constructed alongside dual carriageways in the last two or three years, all of which are aimed more at utility rather than leisure, and none of which have any Sustrans involvement. They are Local Authority projects. I wonder if Sustrans has much of a role now.


The problem with Bridgend in that case is building massively over engineered local roads in the first place. Thus making the place so hostile for active travel that simply encouraging cyclists to ride on the pavement can be presented as progress - though the real aim is actually to get the pesky cyclists out of the way of "proper" traffic.

The planners are obviously auto-supremacists of the first order if they feel the need to build high speed dual carriageways through a small town of 50000 with zero through traffic since it bypassed by a Motorway.

That might all be true if Bridgend were some new town with new dual carriageways, but the people planning the new cycle routes were probably still at primary school when most of the dual carriageways went in. You start from where you are, not where you would like to be.
wjhall
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

Post by wjhall »

I responded to an invitation elsewhere to comment on possible Open Street Map (OSM) handling of this issue. Here seems like a less obscure place for my further remarks on OSM and the general issue, now that I have looked at local changes as an example

1. The underlying situation is probably fairly scandalous. A charity has had public funding to mark NCN routes for decades, either from the state or private contributions, but has decided that it no longer likes the idea, so is actually intending to go round removing the markings. It is particularly scandalous for the former county cycleways which were local authority projects, which existed before Sustrans and had their own marking. If Sustrans want to fiddle with the current markings they should required to revert to the original numbering, for example 10 for the Avon Cycleway.

2. For OSM mapping it is going to be difficult to define an OSM policy relating to on the ground signing of routes that are under someone else's control, or no ones control, and where the current controller has said that they will remove the signs over the next two years. If the routes are useful the solution is above OSM level in the political sphere: someone else, presumably local authorities has to take responsibility. OSM could then continue to map what exists.

3. There may be another solution, if you consider that if the routes had been created today, in the era of GPS they might not necessarily have been signed. This suggests that the solution suggested in the OSM wiki, of marking them as 'NCN abandoned', or similar, perhaps 'NCN assasinated' could be used in cases where OSM considers that they are worth marking. The latter decision is effectively what OSM does for roads and tracks when grading them for traffic levels of bicycle use.

4. Examples:

4.1 My comments are based on the Avon Cycleway, which seems to be one of the routes degraded on the new map: https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51. ... 2.75577,13.

It existed and was signed before Sustrans, with brown 10 signs, and the signing, now blue 410 sometimes with a brown 10 inset, will presumably continue to exist for some while, unless budget and volunteer effort is really to be diverted to an energetic sign removal programme. The signs are useful, particularly on the link routes, when picking your way round the edge of parts of the town that you do not know well, or just to avoid stopping to read the map at every junction.

The cycleway has always had the problem of some busy sections, which were marked on the original maps, for example the B3130 Barrow Road road to Winford is in the Clifton Link, still signed and still used by cyclists as the direct continuation of Hobbs Lane. One of my 1:50k OS maps shows this replaced by a short stretch of the A38 to reach the Felton Road, presumably in the pious hope that the pavement would be designated as shared. I have long ago given up using the B3130 in favour of walking the 600 m up the A38. So you could argue that, like the Sustrans network, the county cycleways never existed in complete form, except as a route suggestion for experienced cyclists, or in quadrants, using the links for less experienced cyclists who read the warnings on the map.

It might be that had the county cycleways been created today, in the age of online planners and GPS, no one would have expected signs on the ground, or possibly would have concentrated on signs warning of the presence of cyclists in the busier sections. Perhaps that is the real utility of the blue route signs.

4.2 The Sustrans changes are rather odd. The quiet narrow back road down the Gordano Valley has been reduced to 'not on the National Cycle Network', whereas the drag strips of Manmoor Lane and Kenn Road, which have some very fast traffic, remain as 'On road route on the National Cycle Network', presumably because they line up with the Strawberry Line. Anyone using the new classification as a guide to traffic conditions could be very surprised. It may be that the Gordano back road has been removed because Sustrans are promoting a scheme to create a mostly off road route on the line of the former light railway on the other side of the valley, and having an NCN marked on the opposite side, about one kilometre away, might hinder the business case.

Keeping NCN41 north through Oldbury is perfectly sensible, reducing NCN410 from Thornbury over to Horton and then back round north of Yate seems odd as the roads are much the same quality, and it actually provides a useful guide to some of the more obscure bits in the urban fringe. Presumably because the principle applied has been to tell the work experience lad to downgrade NCN410 apart from the off-road bits.

The route North through Henbury to Cribbs Causeway is shown as a traffic free part of the network, which it is, if your definition of traffic free is teetering along a narrow shared pavement. Then there are the odd doglegs. Who thinks it is necessary to dogleg NCN4 along Reedley Road, Stoke Lane and Stoke Grove rather than heading directly to Coombe Lane? Strictly, I think this is also a local link route, not NCN4, but the OS map does not make the distinction.

5. I think this points to the conclusion that the NCN is a mess that has never formed a coherent network, and Sustrans moving to define its job as traffic free routes only may be sensible from their business viewpoint, even if this leads to an NCN comprising a series of fragments. This may be the object; if the gaps in the NCN become obvious it may be easier to ask for funding to fill them with off road routes. From the public viewpoint this does leave us with some perfectly useable routes, which still have signing, and are worth maintaining as ideas for outings or utility use. I suggest that where signing exists the route should continue to be marked, both on the ground and on OSM with the number on the signs, at least for sections that are considered useable. Possibly we need a general OSM tag for 'Duff bit of official cycle route' for the parts that are not, rather than leaving users to work this out from the details.

6. We do seem to be heading towards a National Cycle Network comprising the parts of the current network that I now avoid or hurry through, because they are bumpy or busy, or convoluted.

Orignal Avon Cycleway sign still in place deep in the Avon countryside:
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gaz
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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Sustrans has a difficult task ahead. It owns very little of the Network, it could be said to be 'custodian' of the rest. That may give it moral obligations to try to maintain routes but the NCN concept is 25 years old and motor traffic has grown greatly in volume and often in speed over that time. Thanks to SatNav country road rat-running is no longer the preserve of local knowlege, it is ubiquitous.

Sustrans has another moral obligation, to not promote routes unless they are objectively 'safe'. In Sustrans opinion it has applied an objective test of 'safety' and that obligation is the greater of the two*.

The 'debadging' of routes will be done by Sustrans in conjunction with the relevant highway authorities and landowners. Sustrans cannot send out teams of Volunteers to perform the tasks without both the agreement of those partners and due consideration of the health and safety of their Volunteers. Those partners will determine the future of debadged routes, local authority branding may be an option but it's certainly not Sustrans decision.


*other moral obligations may exist.
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mjr
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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wjhall - I agree with much of what you write and that's an excellent ancient cycle route sign. I wonder when it dates from. I think it must be before 1994 and the Avon Cycleway was only opened in 1989.

gaz - I think Sustrans also has a moral duty to have the NCN be a network, even if parts have warning signs for now. They should not leave cyclists basically guessing whether it's safest to bridge a gap by rope, plank or polevault. Just saying "here's the map: take a guess!" is a disservice to all.

On than note, why is there a warning sign with a bicycle in it, but no equivalent with a car in it?
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gaz
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Re: sustrans cuts routes

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mjr wrote:I think Sustrans also has a moral duty to have the NCN be a network, even if parts have warning signs for now. They should not leave cyclists basically guessing whether it's safest to bridge a gap by rope, plank or polevault. Just saying "here's the map: take a guess!" is a disservice to all.

The intention seems to be more along the lines of "Here be dragons, we have a moral obligation not to lead you into dragon country. We've called the dragon slayers and we're prepared to work with them but they're too in love with the dragons to slay them. Please refer to the dragon slayers for the recommended route through dragon country."
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