17 year old calls us out...

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simonineaston
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 23 Jul 2020, 9:14am

The utility cyclist wrote:
simonineaston wrote:small dwelling not going to "save the planet"... wot's need is (drastically) less humans, which, coincidentally or not, is wot's just about to happen!!

Where is that happening? If you're referring to the current situation regards a minor virus strain then you're going to be massively disappointed with the reduction in human beings :roll:
Any 'excess' deaths are government induced, deaths due to inaction/reactions to a minor virus strain and removed health care which means people dying from their existing health conditions a short period earlier than expected (as admitted by the governments own adviser Neil Ferguson)
Something that barely registers from a numerical POV (ignoring the government lies) and is less harmful than a good flu years death toll - you have actually looked at the government/NHS released death numbers FROM the minor virus strain right, is going to leave you well short of your 'drastic' reduction.
You're making the assumption that my remark centres solely around deaths due to C19. Not the case - as you point out, this bug is small beer, however staying on the subject of virus-based disease outbreaks, I'll take the opportunity to remind one-and-all that Covid-19 is just one of an increasing number and that the next one may be as bad or worse - there is simply no way of knowing. Our continuing attack on nature to provide (mostly meat-based) food is a form of Russian roulette - do the reading, if you will. Here is one paper as an example.
My remark was made on the basis of two strands of thought. One that there is increasing anxiety amongst climate scientists that as the modelling becomes more accurate due to the increased availability of data that focuses on recent change, the consensus is that worst-case outcomes may have to be revised to include outcomes that make uncomfortable reading. Second is the growing evidence that the warming that has already happened has resulted in unexpected consequences and that these are likely to feed into the existing patterns in ways that will accelerate current trends, with the possibility that we may see run-away change. Specifically, take the example of methane as a so-called greenhouse gas. Again, you are free to do the reading, but my entirely non-scientific guess is that we are about to witness radical changes in the fundamental make-up of the atmosphere, that will result in changes so catastrophic that the ability of the planet to support life, at least for higher animals, of which mammals ie us, are just one example, will cease. Unfortunately, I'm not alone in thinking this way - again, do the reading. There is recent emerging evidence to support my fears and it goes without saying that I take no pleasure whatsoever in noting this...
Dear old Prof. Lovelock, now in his second year of his second century!, has been describing this sort of eventuality for a couple of decades now, setting aside his always controversial notion of the Gaia hypothosis, and focusing instead on his observations regarding the mechanics of planet stasis. He has published a number of books since first describing Gaia and has refined his conclusions as evidence emerges - sadly, it is begining to look increasingly like he was right in his broadest predictions...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 23 Jul 2020, 9:22am

Or, to put it another way... carpe diem. Just don't think about your kids.
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Carlton green » 23 Jul 2020, 3:54pm

simonineaston wrote:Or, to put it another way... carpe diem. Just don't think about your kids.


That at some point the brown stuff will hit the fan is, to my mind, without question. However the way in which it does will blind side us, in part because we’re mostly not looking and in part because (like CV19) the problem(s) will emerge in a wholly unanticipated way.

The only things that are certain are change and unexpected consequences. To an extent that’s depressing however people do, somehow, manage to live through some rather dire circumstances so I’m still hopeful for my children and grandchildren. It’s a case of do what you can and hope for the best .. other courses of action are available but IMHO they have little merit.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 23 Jul 2020, 4:32pm

Hope springs eternal - boooiiiinnngggg!! The human brain is by design (athough who designed it is of course a bone of contention!) defined by two tendancies - optimism and opportunism. We may survive! Think for example of this - whacky idea of a deluded mentalist or a planet-saving genius??
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Bmblbzzz » 24 Jul 2020, 9:06pm

No one could have predicted CV19 but a viral pandemic of some sort has been expected for a couple of decades.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 24 Jul 2020, 9:33pm

As linked up-thread, viral epidemics are an increasingly regular occurance - and although there is simply no way to predict when the next one will be and how virulent the associated disease (or diseases!) will be, I will bet, going by the available data, there will be another one along within 5 years... Weird Pandemic Factoid: did you know that there are well over a thousand different species of bats and that they make up over 20% of all the world's mammals? They have developed immunity to a wide variety of viruses, primarily 'cos of the colossal number of the pesky little fellows they encounter, as a consequence of their main food-source being (raw, of course) insects, which are loaded with hitch-hikers of all sorts. Fantastic! There is, of course, a mad scrabble by scientists going on at the mo' to see if they can figure out how & why bats have that super-immunity, so we can knick all their ideas!
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 25 Jul 2020, 8:02am

Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:Have you a vision for an alternative economy?

I'm no economist. The EU & UN have targetted a circular economy.

Thank you, that is the first part of what I asked for, though did you not feel any sense of hopelessness, or at least a tough of irony that a thirty year old economic theory needed a Wikipedia link to explain it.
You didn't of course make any attempt to answer the second part
more importantly how to bring it about.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 25 Jul 2020, 8:08am

I'm no economist.
No one in their right mind is! :roll: Dull, boring pseudo-science that attempts to assuage the guilt we all feel, caused by the uncomfortable fact that our behaviour is driven by The Seven Deadly Sins - and in particular, of course, Greed...
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 25 Jul 2020, 8:17am

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:Have you a vision for an alternative economy?

I'm no economist. The EU & UN have targetted a circular economy.

Thank you, that is the first part of what I asked for, though did you not feel any sense of hopelessness, or at least a tough of irony that a thirty year old economic theory needed a Wikipedia link to explain it.
You didn't of course make any attempt to answer the second part
more importantly how to bring it about.

The EU and some other countries are working towrds it. They are doing so by making it more difficult to start new extractions of natural resources, requiring more things be recycled (i.e. re-vamping the battery legislation, which is dated, and only requires about 50% recycling of lithium batteries, for example). they are also investing money in research in these areas. Some aspects of getting there are obvious, others less so. How, shall non-carbon green house gas emissions be most easily limited? Just setting limits on a country basis? That doesn't seem to have worked so well with carbon emissions. A GHG tax? Culture change and social impact are included in research funding; e.g. how to help workers leaving the oil & gas industry.

If you are interested in further information on this topic, the EU is a good place to start https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 020:98:FIN

And how they fund research https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon ... rizon-2020

This is one significant means of funding research, and you can see on there, what topics they have put out for project proposals, some of the projects that are ongoing, etc.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 25 Jul 2020, 9:04am

The EU and some other countries are working towards it.
The UK has of course, recenty taken the step of leaving the EU. Having years ago lost the fantastic revenue stream of free resources stripped from the colonies, and having, post-war, lost the income from manufacturing to the Far East, the only reliable source of big money left to us is "financial services", that is to say, putting poor people in hoc to the tune of trillions to the vehicle industry, as well as allowing the hyper-rich of the world to hide their money and deal with it in ways that break rules. The EU is about to try to clean up that particular bundle of hypocracy and so Britain's remaining source of wealth would go out with the bath-water... that's why we've left.
Nothing to do with 'taking back power', or fishing rights, or saving the NHS, or indeed, anything else to do with ordinary (aka,poor) people. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is missing the point and has firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick - and not surprisingly. No wonder the Russian etc. etc. oligachs who have billions invested in London, because we let them get away with dodgy financial practices... employed a ton of cunning ways to muddy the waters. Tory central office & the ERG were both very well aware of what was going on - don't forget that Cummings lived in Russia and ran businesses there. Consipracy theory? Don't make me laugh. That's the background of our "environmental policies"...
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Morzedec » 25 Jul 2020, 10:30am

Global Warming: just ban baked beans.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 25 Jul 2020, 11:10am

...you can joke about it, but you & me are still going to fry... :( google methane clathrates if you fancy a chuckle. The much-feared escape of this powerful green-house gas has been speculated about for a couple of decades and has now just been detected in both the antarctic and the russian tundra. The fact that it's methane means we can wring much fart-based humour out of the topic, so at least we'll be laughing when the [inappropriate word removed] comes down - oops - sorry! more bottom-based humour crept in there!! hoho wot a larf :-)
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby reohn2 » 25 Jul 2020, 11:14am

simonineaston wrote:
The EU and some other countries are working towards it.
The UK has of course, recenty taken the step of leaving the EU. Having years ago lost the fantastic revenue stream of free resources stripped from the colonies, and having, post-war, lost the income from manufacturing to the Far East, the only reliable source of big money left to us is "financial services", that is to say, putting poor people in hoc to the tune of trillions to the vehicle industry, as well as allowing the hyper-rich of the world to hide their money and deal with it in ways that break rules. The EU is about to try to clean up that particular bundle of hypocracy and so Britain's remaining source of wealth would go out with the bath-water... that's why we've left.
Nothing to do with 'taking back power', or fishing rights, or saving the NHS, or indeed, anything else to do with ordinary (aka,poor) people. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is missing the point and has firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick - and not surprisingly. No wonder the Russian etc. etc. oligachs who have billions invested in London, because we let them get away with dodgy financial practices... employed a ton of cunning ways to muddy the waters. Tory central office & the ERG were both very well aware of what was going on - don't forget that Cummings lived in Russia and ran businesses there. Consipracy theory? Don't make me laugh. That's the background of our "environmental policies"...

Nail,head,on!
And the ordinary wo/man on the street,fell in line like lambs to the slaughter.
IMO the UK for the average person will decline dramatically in the next 5 years,after that who knows,anarchy on an uncontrollable and huge scale?
I hope formthe best but fear the worst.

The bigger picture is of course potentially far,far worse,one wonders just how close humanity is to the edge,an edge where a huge amount of the the brown stuff hits a huge fan that everyone evennthe rich get an aweful lot.
Last edited by reohn2 on 25 Jul 2020, 11:16am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 25 Jul 2020, 11:14am

Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:
more importantly how to bring it about.

The EU and some other countries are working towrds it.


We seem to have jumped from circular economics to circular arguments, this thread starts with the complaint that actions of the EU are completely inadequate. The rate of reduction in some sectors doesn't match the growth in others, people have been pointing this out for decades. The idea that you can have a significant reduction without an impact on prosperity is the proverbial cake and eating it, it moves you from the optimistic camp to the fantasy one. If that makes me a pessimist, so be it, the evidence is pessimistic however optimistic the academic.
Apart from the EU, a circular economy is also part of the economic plan for China, yes seriously, the country that produces so much of the worlds disposable goods is also working towards sustainability. The pessimistic,like me, think we don't have the time left to see that happen.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 25 Jul 2020, 11:49am

Fair comment - the fact that "the greenest country" (we love our ratings, don't we?) may well turn out to be China - think population control... is heavily tainted, at least in the minds of us Westerners, by political prejudice. However, turning to the notion of pessimism, I have pointed out before that pessimism - or any other human trait, such as optimism or opportunism etc. etc. etc. will turn out to be entirely academic. The planet, and the way it reacts to the alteration of its consitutant parts, (whispers the word 'Gaia'...) cares not one jot for the idea of a human, or philosophy, or fairness, or catastrophe...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
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