17 year old calls us out...

Vorpal
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 26 Jul 2020, 9:52pm

Actually the Chinese are leading sustainable technology in some areas. They have, for example, commoditised small hydropower, and implemented hydropower pump turbines by the thousands in their irrigations systems. It has saved vast amounts of emissions from coal power plants to run the irrigation systems. Europeans are only beginning to do the same thing.

Maybe they aren't acting fast enough, but there is much more going on than people generally realise.
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Graham
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Graham » 27 Jul 2020, 8:42am

As our own "leaders" have comprehensively failed to show us how to live an environmentally sustainable lifestyle ( at a personal level ), perhaps we should follow the example of these fine fellows in Afghanistan :-

What the heroin industry can teach us about solar power

OTOH. Perhaps we should only vote for persons who can demonstrate a sustainable lifestyle ?

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 27 Jul 2020, 9:28am

Vorpal wrote:Actually the Chinese are leading sustainable technology in some areas. ...

Maybe they aren't acting fast enough, but there is much more going on than people generally realise.

So, by how much has their coal consumption fallen in the last five years?

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 27 Jul 2020, 10:28am

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Actually the Chinese are leading sustainable technology in some areas. ...

Maybe they aren't acting fast enough, but there is much more going on than people generally realise.

So, by how much has their coal consumption fallen in the last five years?

It has in general been dropping since a peak in 2013. It rose slightly last year, compared to the previous year, but is way down this year, by comparison. I suppose that is largely due to covid 19.

I'm not sure 'how much', though it looks like maybe 10% from the graphs available on the 'web? Their coal *production* has continued to rise. I suppose that they must be exporting some, perhaps to India.

Coal as a contribution to their energy mix continues to decline.

https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 27 Jul 2020, 11:29am

Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Actually the Chinese are leading sustainable technology in some areas. ...

Maybe they aren't acting fast enough, but there is much more going on than people generally realise.

So, by how much has their coal consumption fallen in the last five years?

It has in general been dropping since a peak in 2013.

Other analysis shows otherwise
https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-2019

But whatever graph you look at none of them, including the optimistic projections, show anything like the downward direction required.
Your point about China now exporting more coal, demonstrates the point made earlier (And in the linked story at the start of this thread) about economic equalisation. This is what IMO makes it so hopeless, the World economy is still growing at a rate higher than sustainable, however you fuel it.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 27 Jul 2020, 12:57pm

The predominent economic system in use by us humans is simply too unwieldy and entrenched to be nimble enough to cope with recent environmetnal change. By the time it becomes so obvious that even the most inflexible thinkers aquiesce, it'll be too late - exactly when that will be is unknowable... although some respectable analysts - myself included ;-) - think that point has already passed. Hence my sadness with respect to my close friends' young children... their lives will be curtailed in unpleasant ways (I suspect) and yet they have done nothing to deserve that fate, other than to have been born. Still, in some ways, that was always what was going to happen (think fallen soldiers in wars, accident / disease victims, yadda yadda yadda...)
I remember saying, aged 7 maybe, perceiving some sleight or disadvantage, "But Dad - that's not fair...." to which he replayed, "Life's not fair, son." Never a truer word said, I'm afraid.
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Carlton green » 27 Jul 2020, 2:15pm

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:So, by how much has their coal consumption fallen in the last five years?

It has in general been dropping since a peak in 2013.

Other analysis shows otherwise
https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-2019

But whatever graph you look at none of them, including the optimistic projections, show anything like the downward direction required.
Your point about China now exporting more coal, demonstrates the point made earlier (And in the linked story at the start of this thread) about economic equalisation. This is what IMO makes it so hopeless, the World economy is still growing at a rate higher than sustainable, however you fuel it.


Here’s an example of the disaster that we call free trade. Make the parts in some remote place and cause as much social and environmental damage as you like versus make the parts in the U.K. or the EU and be held accountable for what you do. I increasingly think that we’re bonkers to allow free trade to continue so unchecked and have given other countries the means to pollute the planet and destroy established economies. When and where I can my spend doesn’t go outside of products from Europe and North America - and ideally just Europe.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jul 2020, 8:33am

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:So, by how much has their coal consumption fallen in the last five years?

It has in general been dropping since a peak in 2013.

Other analysis shows otherwise
https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-2019

But whatever graph you look at none of them, including the optimistic projections, show anything like the downward direction required.
Your point about China now exporting more coal, demonstrates the point made earlier (And in the linked story at the start of this thread) about economic equalisation. This is what IMO makes it so hopeless, the World economy is still growing at a rate higher than sustainable, however you fuel it.

But the site shows the same thing I said. Chinese coal consumption peaked in 2013.

I agree that we need to do more. China, too. But they are steadily increasing renewable energy, and decreasing coal power and consumption.
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 28 Jul 2020, 9:02am

Vorpal wrote:
PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:It has in general been dropping since a peak in 2013.

Other analysis shows otherwise
https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-2019

But whatever graph you look at none of them, including the optimistic projections, show anything like the downward direction required.
Your point about China now exporting more coal, demonstrates the point made earlier (And in the linked story at the start of this thread) about economic equalisation. This is what IMO makes it so hopeless, the World economy is still growing at a rate higher than sustainable, however you fuel it.

But the site shows the same thing I said. Chinese coal consumption peaked in 2013.

I agree that we need to do more. China, too. But they are steadily increasing renewable energy, and decreasing coal power and consumption.

No. Having increased coal consumption by 58% in the preceding ten years, it dipped 4% between 2013 to 2016 before rising again, we haven't reached the peak. It wasn't sustainable ten years ago and there is no projection that even gets back to that level on any predictable timescale. What we hear is that science will sort it out, but no one knows how, it's like a religion, blind faith. Maybe there is a heaven, but by the time you find out, it's too late to change anything.
We're going round in circles so I'll leave this where I came in - Current levels of consumption are not sustainable, the answer can only come from reducing that, not trying to supply the same thing in some other way, that will only ever make marginal differences. What's needed is too drastic to be politically popular, so it won't happen. That's not to say the little things are not good in their own way, just that they won't be anything like enough.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby simonineaston » 28 Jul 2020, 9:15am

So, in summary, the end of The Earth's ability to support higher life is ensured, because our politiicians - a tiny, tiny minority - have bottled it... interesting take on the fabel of the Tower of Babel!
ttfn, Simon in Easton
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Graham
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Graham » 28 Jul 2020, 9:28am

simonineaston wrote:So, in summary, the end of The Earth's ability to support higher life is ensured, because our politiicians - a tiny, tiny minority - have bottled it... interesting take on the fabel of the Tower of Babel!

Ahem, well it's us that vote for them .

Equivalent to blaming the manufacturers & producers, when it is us consumers making the buy/not-to-buy decision .

To get out of this one we all have to take more personal responsibility for our choices.
AND
We need ( to vote for ) politicians who show us how to live environmentally sustainable lives
AND
We need the "circular economy" where individuals and organisation cannot just pass on or ignore the problems that they generate.
Oh, AND
An economic system that does fully account for environmental damage caused.

This is all entirely possible. . . . . but we still have our heads in the sand . .. blaming everyone else.

Get a grip folks - this isn't a rehearsal.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Oldjohnw » 28 Jul 2020, 9:56am

We can all exercise a fundamental right. We can buy less, buy better and buy sustainably.

Right now British people want to go to Spain and somewhere else wants to come to the UK for foreign holidays. And on and on ad infitum. We could stay home, keep our hotels and guest houses etc going and the only sufferers would be the airlines. Obviously that would hurt many jobs in the short term.

But the madness has to stop.
John

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jul 2020, 10:05am

PH wrote:No. Having increased coal consumption by 58% in the preceding ten years, it dipped 4% between 2013 to 2016 before rising again, we haven't reached the peak. It wasn't sustainable ten years ago and there is no projection that even gets back to that level on any predictable timescale.

You asked the last 5 years. I did my best to answer.

I wasn't suggesting that it is anything like sustainable. I never said their coal consumption was good.

I was talking about their expertise in hydropower. But we all need to learn best practices from each other. It's no good just aying the Chinese are awful for burning all that coal when we can learn a great deal from them about recovering energy using hydropower in irrigation systems. They lead the world in that particular aspect.

Should we ignore all their research about microhydropower because they burn coal?
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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby PH » 28 Jul 2020, 10:30am

Vorpal wrote:Should we ignore all their research about microhydropower because they burn coal?

Of course not, what a daft argument. But that isn't the answer, or it's an answer to a different question.

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Re: 17 year old calls us out...

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jul 2020, 11:57am

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Should we ignore all their research about microhydropower because they burn coal?

Of course not, what a daft argument. But that isn't the answer, or it's an answer to a different question.

Please don't call other people's arguments daft.

Yes, it was a silly question. But I said, 'China is leading in some sector, for example, hydropower in irrigation systems', and you said, 'but, coal', which has nothing to do with hydropower. I shouldn't have bothered responding.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom