Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Jdsk
Posts: 2497
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 9:10am

Pete Owens wrote:
Jdsk wrote:So we are now agreeing that the Dutch Reach does include looking in the mirror as part of the sequence. That's progress.

Indeed, all the other stuff is distraction.

Please could you tell us what procedure you would like to see recommended.

Thanks

Jonathan

thirdcrank
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Aug 2020, 10:42am

The most important thing is that people - ie not just drivers but everyone opening vehicle doors - should pay careful attention to what they are doing, in particular they must look. It's very easy for procedures to become rituals. I suspect that the riskiest time for a dooring is when somebody is in a real hurry to get out.

Education supported by robust enforcement would be my preferred option.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 10:48am

thirdcrank wrote:It's very easy for procedures to become rituals.

They can. But education isn't an alternative to recommending the procedure that is thought to be best. And without some details of what to do education can become mere exhortation to be more careful.

thirdcrank wrote:Education supported by robust enforcement would be my preferred option.

Reactive enforcement depends on detection... any suggestions?

Jonathan

Pete Owens
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Pete Owens » 12 Aug 2020, 10:53am

Jdsk wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:Reach over twist your body round press your face right against the window and admire the extensive view of your door pillar. It is simply not possible to see approaching cyclists coming from behind through a window facing sideways - light travels in straight lines.

Pete Owens wrote:I said you couldn't see approaching cyclists from behind (which is THE thing you need to be able to see if you are claiming this techinque to be hepful). I never claimed that you couldn't see anything at all through the side window - (no doubt if you car is pointing north at the right time of day you can admire the sunset).

If I can see my floor jack why wouldn't I be able to see a cyclist at the same or greater angle?

Jonathan

Because - As I have explained several times since you first reported how little you can see though your side window - being able to see something 2m away is of little use when you need to see things over 15m away (and that is just cyclists within emergency stopping range). It is the things you CANT see when looking behind not the little bit you CAN.

By the time a cyclist is so close that you can see them through the side window it is too late. They will have ridden past your door in about a quarter of a second - less time than it will have taken you to register their presence.

Jdsk
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 10:58am

There's no limit on the distance that I can see things through the side window, there is on the angle.

But the observation of the floor jack was only to show that I can see more than the door pillar, which is what you asserted. Not that it is all that is needed.

The Dutch Reach procedure doesn't rely only on what can be seen through the side window... it's a whole sequence that includes use of the mirrors, the side windows, and direct visions as the door is opened. (And possibly slower opening of the door.)

If you post the procedure that you'd prefer we could compare them.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 12 Aug 2020, 11:04am, edited 1 time in total.

Pete Owens
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Pete Owens » 12 Aug 2020, 11:01am

thirdcrank wrote:The most important thing is that people - ie not just drivers but everyone opening vehicle doors - should pay careful attention to what they are doing, in particular they must look. It's very easy for procedures to become rituals. I suspect that the riskiest time for a dooring is when somebody is in a real hurry to get out.

Education supported by robust enforcement would be my preferred option.


The most important thing is for cyclists avoid riding in the door zone the first place - amending the highway code to point out that this is more than the 0.5m it recommends would be a good place to start.

Jdsk
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 11:07am

Pete Owens wrote:The most important thing is for cyclists avoid riding in the door zone the first place - amending the highway code to point out that this is more than the 0.5m it recommends would be a good place to start.

The proposed change is:
"Take care when passing parked vehicles, leaving enough room (a door’s width or 0.5m) to avoid being hit if a door opens unexpectedly, and watch out for pedestrians stepping into your path"

Yes, 0.5m isn't enough.

Jonathan

thirdcrank
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Aug 2020, 11:09am

Jdsk wrote: ... Reactive enforcement depends on detection... any suggestions? ...


I don't intend going back to look, but I don't think you have suggested any way of ensuring that people do what you are recommending.

If there is anything that visible policing affects it is driver behaviour. As it is, even in the diminishing world of traffic enforcement, dooring isn't one of the so-called "fatal four" so the discussion seems a bit academic.

Pete Owens
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Pete Owens » 12 Aug 2020, 11:13am

Jdsk wrote:There's no limit on the distance that I can see things through the side window, there is on the angle.

And since the things you need to see are approaching from behind and close enough to be within door range then that angle is a limit on distance.

The things you need to be able to see to decide whether it is safe to open your door are visible in the mirror, but hidden behind the door pillar if you attempt to look directly.

Jdsk
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 11:16am

thirdcrank wrote:
Jdsk wrote: ... Reactive enforcement depends on detection... any suggestions? ...


I don't intend going back to look, but I don't think you have suggested any way of ensuring that people do what you are recommending.

I don't see the educational interventions to improve safety as alternatives to better detection and enforcement and technological means of prevention.

Getting the best available procedure into the Highway Code will help in initial training and testing, in training and testing for special licences, in remedial training and testing, and occasionally in prosecution. (And we should put much more effort into testing after remedial training: offenders have already demonstrated their needs.)

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 11:19am

Pete Owens wrote:The things you need to be able to see to decide whether it is safe to open your door are visible in the mirror, but hidden behind the door pillar if you attempt to look directly.

In the absence of your recommended procedure but having read your posts should I read that as:
* Look in your mirror
* Don't look through the side window
* Use either hand to open the door
* Don't look through the aperture as the door opens?

Thanks

Jonathan

tim-b
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby tim-b » 12 Aug 2020, 1:06pm

Hi
The most important thing is for cyclists avoid riding in the door zone the first place - amending the highway code to point out that this is more than the 0.5m it recommends would be a good place to start

"take care when passing parked vehicles, leaving enough room (a door’s width or 0.5m) to avoid being hit if a door opens unexpectedly, and watch out for pedestrians stepping into your path"
How many 0.5m long car doors are there? I'd suggest that there's been a typo and it needs amending. A quick measure suggests 1.1m door length is possibly average, but some large 2-door cabriolets will be nearer 1.5m. I'd leave a measurement out as being too prescriptive and stick with the simpler "door's width"
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

Jdsk
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Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 1:15pm

tim-b wrote: I'd leave a measurement out as being too prescriptive and stick with the simpler "door's width"

Almost certainly better to remove the "or". "Door's width" sounds sensible.

Jonathan

mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby mattheus » 12 Aug 2020, 2:25pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mattheus wrote:I'm convinced that the changes are GOOD for 2-a-breast riders! CUK agree:

Which is a rather curious interpretation to say the least when the rule has changed from:
"Never ride more than two abreast ..."
"Ride in single file ..."


It's an improvement on
"Never ride ... "

doncha think?

(or we could all try to read to the end of sentences ... )

Pete Owens
Posts: 1894
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Highway Code revisions: Consultation open until 27 October 2020

Postby Pete Owens » 14 Aug 2020, 2:59am

Jdsk wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:The things you need to be able to see to decide whether it is safe to open your door are visible in the mirror, but hidden behind the door pillar if you attempt to look directly.

In the absence of your recommended procedure but having read your posts should I read that as:
* Look in your mirror
* Don't look through the side window
* Use either hand to open the door
* Don't look through the aperture as the door opens?

Thanks

Jonathan

Absolutely.

Since the ONLY place you will see approaching cyclists from behind the car is in your mirror it is important that thoroughly checking the mirror is the thing you do immediately before you open the door. All else is distraction. The road environment is constantly changing so anything you do between checking your mirror and opening the door gives a chance for a door zone cyclist to appear - and if you are reaching, leaning, twisting, admiring the sunset o staring your door pillar or indeed anywhere other than your mirror you will not see them.

However, since you are absolutely hooked on a multi-stage process I would suggest this:
Works for any sequence where step n = opening the door and n >= 2

1. Whatever makes you happy
2. Ditto
3. Ditto
...
n-1: Check your Mirror
n: Open your door