Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Aug 2020, 5:00pm

Putting roads and paths underground is much more expensive than at ground level. Elevated also costs more though not usually as much as underground. How much more I'm not going to hazard a guess, it'll obviously depend on all sorts of things from design to geology. An engineer will be here soon...

But underpasses and subways are quite rightly out of fashion. Many survive in rural areas and smaller towns but in urban areas they tend to attract (or be perceived to attract) muggers, junkies, beggars and the homeless, as well as vomit, p!ss, sh!t and of course cigarette smoke. As if that weren't enough, they can also be prone to flooding.

Elevated ways are seen as safer but tend to take a lot of land; this might mean that in a high land-cost area like Cambridge, they're more expensive than an underpass.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby atlas_shrugged » 13 Aug 2020, 5:12pm

@mjr Thanks for the LTN 1/20 table 5-7 reference. Do you know at which design speed you are supposed to choose when negotiating the Fendon Road roundabaout on a cycle?

I use crashmap when looking at KSIs and from memory Fendon roundabout has had deaths in the past. However it is not the worst roundabout in Cranebridge. That dubious honour goes to the Trumpington Road mini-roundabouts. From memory these are the 2nd worst in the country for cyclist deaths.

I would not trust the new Fendon Road design for young children or vision impaired. Cranebridge unfortunately has a small percentage of drivers who do not stop. I think the design is better and safer that before, but I would still not feel safe if my 23 year-old daughter used this daily let alone a 5 year-old.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby mjr » 13 Aug 2020, 5:48pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:@mjr Thanks for the LTN 1/20 table 5-7 reference. Do you know at which design speed you are supposed to choose when negotiating the Fendon Road roundabaout on a cycle?

No. I don't think that's entirely clear from LTN 1/20 but I think example figure 10-37 suggests it should be 20kph ideally. I suspect the 10kph may be acceptable given the constrained space and resulting modified layout, but it sounds like you estimate that they might not even have achieved that!
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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby atlas_shrugged » 13 Aug 2020, 6:01pm

@Bmblbzzz
Travelling from Trumpington park and ride to the central train station our premier Cranebridge Greenway does pass under three underpasses and they are OK. This because they are line of sight and the road above ramps up and over (it was a train line). You can see straight through the underpass before entering them. Elsewhere in Cranebridge there is an underpass as you describe e.g. the Queen Elizabeth with exit ramps at right angles, crazy steep gradients etc etc.

We do have druggies, muggers, and beggars in Cambridge but they tend to be at places like Mill Road or the city centre where they can be near the revenue stream if you get my drift. They do not tend to hang around on the Greenway because cyclists would not stop.

Making an underpass on a road or roundabout is expensive agreed. Stevenage used the bright idea of making the roads ramp up over the paths. However Cranebridge is due to make underneath resemble Gruyere cheese with an autonomous metro (CAM). You have spotted the obvious design flaw with this with the druggies, beggars, and muggers. But it does show that Cranebridge has loads of money. My suggestion is for a few underpasses not a 20 year nightmare of digging up all of central Cranebridge.

What I wonder is the cost to the country of killing on his bike a world renown botanist (Newmarket Road)? I am fine with a vision-zero cost benefit analysis - lets crank the numbers. Cycling with dedicated tracks will beat CAM on every measure

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Aug 2020, 6:06pm

My underpass comments were general; I'm not familiar with Cambridge, so it's always good to have a local view on what might or might not be appropriate in each place.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby drossall » 13 Aug 2020, 7:01pm

atlas_shrugged wrote: In other words full Stevenagize the roundabout.

I believe that I know the roundabout in Cambridge, at least before conversion, and I definitely know Stevenage. I cannot imagine there being enough space in Cambridge to do what was done in building Stevenage as a New Town. You'd have 1:5 slopes at least!

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Cyril Haearn » 13 Aug 2020, 7:02pm

No problem, one can drive up a 20% slope
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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby backnotes » 13 Aug 2020, 7:13pm

atlas_shrugged wrote: They do not tend to hang around on the Greenway because cyclists would not stop.


They did for a while a couple of years ago, though it's got better since then - and the stolen Ofo bikes that were like a badge of honour have gone too.....

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... e-15117430

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby atlas_shrugged » 13 Aug 2020, 8:57pm

@backnotes You are right about that. I remember going into the Trumpington park and ride hub and asking the attendant at the desk with the security video right by him what was happening about the four recent attacks on the busway. "What recent attacks on the busway"? was his astonishing reply. Er the ones reported in the Cranebridge news with the photo of blood streaming down their face and similar reports. That very day the Cranebridge news put the 4 photos of the victims on the front page. Astonishing that council workers are not informed what crime is happening in their area!

There is a very sad end to the above story. A cyclist returning from his evening work would normally use the busway. But because of the recent reported attacks he was urged to avoid this route and instead used Trumpington Road. He was killed on this road by a motorist, he had children.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Pete Owens » 14 Aug 2020, 12:24am

atlas_shrugged wrote:Will this new design save lives is a key question?

That will depend whether the improved safety caused by the lower speed geometry outweighs the increased danger caused by the orbital cycle track.

Looking at crashmap, the nearby Perne Road roundabout does seem to have resulted in significantly fewer casualties since it was remodelled to continental geometry in 2014.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby mjr » 14 Aug 2020, 12:34am

Pete Owens wrote:
atlas_shrugged wrote:Will this new design save lives is a key question?

That will depend whether the improved safety caused by the lower speed geometry outweighs the increased danger caused by the orbital cycle track.

Looking at crashmap, the nearby Perne Road roundabout does seem to have resulted in significantly fewer casualties since it was remodelled to continental geometry in 2014.

And that one encourages cyclists up onto pretty poor "shared space" corners with pantomime-angle junctions ("they're behind you!") to rejoin the carriageway! I guess that may show that the usual UK roundabout geometry may well be so harmful that almost any change is an improvement :-/
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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Pete Owens » 14 Aug 2020, 2:31am

Certainly the observed improvement in safety at the Perne Road roundabout is down to the cycle-friendly slow-speed geometry of the carragiaway rather than the segregated nonsense round the perimeter (a design feature that is unfortunately all too common).

The design was principally intended to improve conditions on the carriageway
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/61691/
which is why it had the support of segregation sceptics such as myself against the passionate opposition of the segregation advocates such as you. See the debate at the time:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91570&hilit=perne&start=165

And the thing is 6 years on we can see the results - it worked - the roundabout is now much safer.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby mjr » 14 Aug 2020, 10:22am

Pete Owens wrote:Certainly the observed improvement in safety at the Perne Road roundabout is down to the cycle-friendly slow-speed geometry of the carragiaway rather than the segregated nonsense round the perimeter (a design feature that is unfortunately all too common).

The design was principally intended to improve conditions on the carriageway
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/61691/

which it failed to do, as you can see in pictures like https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/61846/ that even brave macho macho men can't "take the lane" as suggested in the designer's photo you linked. Meanwhile, kids and other riders are condemned to the badly-designed periphery
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/61694/

which is why it had the support of segregation sceptics such as myself against the passionate opposition of the segregation advocates such as you.

I have never advocated segregation.

See the debate at the time:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91570&hilit=perne&start=165

And the thing is 6 years on we can see the results - it worked - the roundabout is now much safer.

As the old debate shows, Perne isn't continental and supports my previous claim about even iffy crap being better than usual UK designs.

It'll be interesting to compare Perne with Fendon in a few years.
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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 14 Aug 2020, 11:21am

That would be this one?
https://goo.gl/maps/Hf8JsSV1NstJbYMn6
Speaking just from the photo, never having been there, the geometry looks good, the shared use ("ride on the pavement") stuff looks useless. But it does look decent to ride round on carriageway, as the woman with the white bag is doing.

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Re: Fendon Road Roundabout, Cambridge.

Postby backnotes » 14 Aug 2020, 1:13pm

Just to make it more confusing there are two roundabouts on Perne Rd, so a regular one at Cherry Hinton Rd, and the modified one at Radegund Rd which is the one being talked about above. Many / most cyclists seem to stick to the road at the Radegund Rd one.

So, heading north from the hospital, you now encounter 3 different designs of roundabout one after the other. So, a chance to see which design works best, except to do the experiment properly you would ideally want to randomize the sequence in which they are encountered to overcome "order effects"!