The Book of Trespass

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Aug 2020, 1:24pm

Bikes`n`guns wrote:Always confused me this one.

Up here in Scotland we have a right to access our own country and we deserve it and it works.

In England you are excluded from everywhere unless someone allows it. Madness.

I just wish it was clearer on where folk are allowed to ride dirt bikes. Most civilised countries have public land for public use.

It's too much of a generalization.
And there are profound diffences in land quality and use.
Public land is fine for access. There are, don't forget, vast acres of mountain Crown Land open to all too.

The idea that anyone can just wander through a field of hay or other cultivation is beyond what makes sense, IMV.

England and Wales have a fine and quite dense network of Public Footpaths. That is a right to roam 365/24 pretty much.
Landowner are mostly very happy about that, and enjoy a chat with strangers.
Not many landowners are against discrete camping either, with the proviso "in the right place".
But minority can spoil things here.
And the right to roam is different to the right to set up camp.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Aug 2020, 1:29pm

Round my area there's rental land but it's usually owned by a small landowners, indeed retired farmers or the heirs who only want the farm building or converted barn and rents the rest off for a little income. I know people who supplement their small farm with rented land. I know people renting out that l their land too

Farmland is in demand there's a lot of young farmers desperate to own land but are starting out by renting.

Woodland? You have to be kidding right? Small packets of woodland have rocketed up in price dramatically over the last 10 years. There's a growing hobbyist woodland management scene going on I believe. On another forum there's quite few doing that, either as owners or voluntary management for nature reserves or community woods. Others have been planting their own native woodland on smallholdings or poor quality farmland. It's not a doubling or tripling of woodland prices but many times more than that!!

I suspect many on here do not have much actual connection to the land and management of it. Perhaps your little patch of garden or driving through it to your little village. Not being critical just pointing out that living in a rural area but not part of the rural community is very common these days. It's very common for farmers to live in town but work in country for many reasons. One is possibly the farm house/ old barn is now a professional types home and the farmer or farm worker can't afford rural living.

I suspect monbiot and other journalists or environmental academics are out of touch with what is really happening. Especially those with a more campaigning/ political bent like Monbiot.

Bmblbzzz
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Location: From here to there.

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Bmblbzzz » 20 Aug 2020, 1:51pm

Zulu Eleven wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Don't you think WW1 was at least two decades ago? :D

Farmland, clearly a lot is owned by farmers but a lot is rented; I don't know the actual ratio. And the "189,000 families" I agree it would be more usefully expressed in terms of households, but presumably - just guessing as I don't know where the figure comes from - "families" expresses a hereditary aspect.

Anywayzzz...


Apologies. The claim i meant to refer to was, of course, land ownership remaining unchanged for centuries, not decades.

No need to apologise, it was clear what was meant, I just wanted a joke about it.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby pwa » 20 Aug 2020, 3:12pm

Bikes`n`guns wrote:Always confused me this one.

Up here in Scotland we have a right to access our own country and we deserve it and it works.

In England you are excluded from everywhere unless someone allows it. Madness.

I just wish it was clearer on where folk are allowed to ride dirt bikes. Most civilised countries have public land for public use.

Please fill in a gap in my knowledge. How does the Scottish system work on the ground. From where I am, in this village in Wales, I have lanes going off in several directions like the spokes of a wheel. All obviously accessible to walkers, car drivers, cyclists, etc. But we also have a fairly dense network of Public Footpaths across fields, again in all directions. They have stiles or kissing gates. Presumably in Scotland they wouldn't be there. Or would they? It wouldn't be much use to me as a walker to be able to walk around a farmer's field if I couldn't link up paths to make a good circuit, as I can with our Public Footpaths. So how do you walk around farmland?

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Jdsk » 20 Aug 2020, 3:20pm

Scottish Outdoor Access Code
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Outdoor_Access_Code

and paths and trails still exist in Scotland.

Jonathan

pwa
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Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby pwa » 20 Aug 2020, 3:29pm

Jdsk wrote:Scottish Outdoor Access Code
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Outdoor_Access_Code

and paths and trails still exist in Scotland.

Jonathan

Does Scottish farmland have the dense network of paths we have around our village here in Wales?

Anyone arriving in our rural village could pick up an OS Explorer map and quickly work out a five mile circuit staying mainly on paths across fields (via stiles and gates), through woods and along cliff tops. Could I go to a village in farmland in Scotland and do that, as a stranger with only a map?

pete75
Posts: 13163
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2020, 4:54pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
Zulu Eleven wrote:
pete75 wrote:Image

According to that chart farmers don't own any land - interesting. It's also wrong when it says land ownership has remained largely unchanged for generations among the landowners and gentry. Much of their land was sold to the tenants who farmed. According to Howard Newby in "Green and Pleasant Land?" only 10% of farmland was owner occupied before WW1 but by 1971 it was 61%.


Indeed, we know that 72% of uk land is farmed (though this includes large areas of rough grazing) - There are around 192,000 farms in the UK, but Only 20% of these are over 250 acres

We also know that in the aftermath of WW1 many country estates were dissolved In order to pay various forms of death taxes, so the ‘land ownership has remained largely unchanged for decades’ seems hard to square away. I recall some research from about 20 years ago that reckoned that two thirds of UK land was owned by 189,000 families... but how big/wide is a family? It doesn’t take much for that to quickly add to that land being shared across a couple of million people (eg if each ‘family’ has mum, dad, 2 kids, uncle & auntie also with two kids, grandma, granddad).

Don't you think WW1 was at least two decades ago? :D

Farmland, clearly a lot is owned by farmers but a lot is rented; I don't know the actual ratio. And the "189,000 families" I agree it would be more usefully expressed in terms of households, but presumably - just guessing as I don't know where the figure comes from - "families" expresses a hereditary aspect.

Anywayzzz...


The chart makes the claim land ownership has remained unchanged for centuries not decades.

pete75
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Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2020, 5:04pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Round my area there's rental land but it's usually owned by a small landowners, indeed retired farmers or the heirs who only want the farm building or converted barn and rents the rest off for a little income. I know people who supplement their small farm with rented land. I know people renting out that l their land too

Farmland is in demand there's a lot of young farmers desperate to own land but are starting out by renting.

Woodland? You have to be kidding right? Small packets of woodland have rocketed up in price dramatically over the last 10 years. There's a growing hobbyist woodland management scene going on I believe. On another forum there's quite few doing that, either as owners or voluntary management for nature reserves or community woods. Others have been planting their own native woodland on smallholdings or poor quality farmland. It's not a doubling or tripling of woodland prices but many times more than that!!

I suspect many on here do not have much actual connection to the land and management of it. Perhaps your little patch of garden or driving through it to your little village. Not being critical just pointing out that living in a rural area but not part of the rural community is very common these days. It's very common for farmers to live in town but work in country for many reasons. One is possibly the farm house/ old barn is now a professional types home and the farmer or farm worker can't afford rural living.

I suspect monbiot and other journalists or environmental academics are out of touch with what is really happening. Especially those with a more campaigning/ political bent like Monbiot.


Eh? I know quite a few farmers and all live in a farmhouse on their farms. Not so many farm workers about these days but most I know live in a house provided by the farm where they work mostly rent free. This is a decent job perk and isn't taxed

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Aug 2020, 5:26pm

Up here many or even most farms have amalgamated. Farmhouse and cottages are sold off. Many farms belong to PLCs. A few hill farms are rented from estates by very much struggling tenants.
John

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Aug 2020, 10:43pm

pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Round my area there's rental land but it's usually owned by a small landowners, indeed retired farmers or the heirs who only want the farm building or converted barn and rents the rest off for a little income. I know people who supplement their small farm with rented land. I know people renting out that l their land too

Farmland is in demand there's a lot of young farmers desperate to own land but are starting out by renting.

Woodland? You have to be kidding right? Small packets of woodland have rocketed up in price dramatically over the last 10 years. There's a growing hobbyist woodland management scene going on I believe. On another forum there's quite few doing that, either as owners or voluntary management for nature reserves or community woods. Others have been planting their own native woodland on smallholdings or poor quality farmland. It's not a doubling or tripling of woodland prices but many times more than that!!

I suspect many on here do not have much actual connection to the land and management of it. Perhaps your little patch of garden or driving through it to your little village. Not being critical just pointing out that living in a rural area but not part of the rural community is very common these days. It's very common for farmers to live in town but work in country for many reasons. One is possibly the farm house/ old barn is now a professional types home and the farmer or farm worker can't afford rural living.

I suspect monbiot and other journalists or environmental academics are out of touch with what is really happening. Especially those with a more campaigning/ political bent like Monbiot.


Eh? I know quite a few farmers and all live in a farmhouse on their farms. Not so many farm workers about these days but most I know live in a house provided by the farm where they work mostly rent free. This is a decent job perk and isn't taxed

I'm talking of farm workers not farmers but there are farmers who don't actually own a farm with house. Round here there's been farms selling off land or renting it off leaving no need for farmhouses. There's empty ones falling down or sold for housing beyond the price range of some of the farm workers. My former colleague and her partner employs a guy for something like two days who lives in a flat in the middle of Morecambe I believe. That guy does work for other farms in other days.

Actually another perk is children of farm owners can build a house on the land without needing to get full planning permission. That house would need to be for the farm owner's children and they couldn't sell it outside the family I believe. Not sure if 20 odd years after being built it could then be sold or if the restriction lasts as long as the building. A mate who's not a farmer but whose dad owned a farm considered it at one point.

Tangled Metal
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Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Aug 2020, 10:53pm

Apparently there's a dodgy use for abandoned farmhouses around the Preston to Blackpool area a decade or more ago and I think still now. They've been used for growing pot? Gangs kit them out with insulation, ventilation, hydroponics and lighting. A friend found his smallholding had a field of the stuff growing outside too. He told me of the arrest of a gang of growers in his area then a couple of weeks later when clearing that part of his land and burning what he cut down he realised he was burning pot. He was relieved when the wind direction changed and blew the smoke away from the village direction.

Another disused farmhouse I heard that had a different use was IIRC down Chorley way or a bit further south. Someone was stealing pedigree dogs to order or just to sell. If they didn't sell a dog they'd use them to train fighting dogs. The farmhouse and old barns held the dogs. A colleague had a friend whose expensive pedigree drug got stolen and she got a tip through Facebook. She went down there and but her dog back and the others got rescued too apparently.

pete75
Posts: 13163
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The Book of Trespass

Postby pete75 » 21 Aug 2020, 8:57am

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Round my area there's rental land but it's usually owned by a small landowners, indeed retired farmers or the heirs who only want the farm building or converted barn and rents the rest off for a little income. I know people who supplement their small farm with rented land. I know people renting out that l their land too

Farmland is in demand there's a lot of young farmers desperate to own land but are starting out by renting.

Woodland? You have to be kidding right? Small packets of woodland have rocketed up in price dramatically over the last 10 years. There's a growing hobbyist woodland management scene going on I believe. On another forum there's quite few doing that, either as owners or voluntary management for nature reserves or community woods. Others have been planting their own native woodland on smallholdings or poor quality farmland. It's not a doubling or tripling of woodland prices but many times more than that!!

I suspect many on here do not have much actual connection to the land and management of it. Perhaps your little patch of garden or driving through it to your little village. Not being critical just pointing out that living in a rural area but not part of the rural community is very common these days. It's very common for farmers to live in town but work in country for many reasons. One is possibly the farm house/ old barn is now a professional types home and the farmer or farm worker can't afford rural living.

I suspect monbiot and other journalists or environmental academics are out of touch with what is really happening. Especially those with a more campaigning/ political bent like Monbiot.


Eh? I know quite a few farmers and all live in a farmhouse on their farms. Not so many farm workers about these days but most I know live in a house provided by the farm where they work mostly rent free. This is a decent job perk and isn't taxed

I'm talking of farm workers not farmers but there are farmers who don't actually own a farm with house. Round here there's been farms selling off land or renting it off leaving no need for farmhouses. There's empty ones falling down or sold for housing beyond the price range of some of the farm workers. My former colleague and her partner employs a guy for something like two days who lives in a flat in the middle of Morecambe I believe. That guy does work for other farms in other days.

Actually another perk is children of farm owners can build a house on the land without needing to get full planning permission. That house would need to be for the farm owner's children and they couldn't sell it outside the family I believe. Not sure if 20 odd years after being built it could then be sold or if the restriction lasts as long as the building. A mate who's not a farmer but whose dad owned a farm considered it at one point.


You did you say farmers though. Most farm workers I know live on or near the farms they work on usually in a house provided by the farmer or a council house in their village. A restricted agricultural covenant house has to be lived in by someone deriving their income from agriculture. Covenents can be lifted but a lot of authorities have very strict rules about this. It's not restricted to the children of farmers and to satisfy the restriction they too must derive their main income from the land. The house can be sold but only to another person whose main source of income is agriculture unless the covenant is lifted.